ECN Forum
Posted By: Pete Magsig Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 02:31 AM
Hello,

In 314.29, it states that boxes need to "be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building..."

In the definition of "Accessible (as applied to wiring methods)" it says "Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish..."

What if I have an attic room with a storage closet, the floor of which is some 1x6's deck-screwed into the joists? Can I have J-boxes under those floorboards?

I can remove the floorboards fairly handily with a screwdriver, but does this constitute "accessible"?

How about if the floor boards aren't screwed down, and have finger-pulls in them?
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 02:15 PM
Welcome to the forum Pete. Screws do not render an area or box inaccessible. Many commercial type access panels are held shut with screws.

As a matter of fact, the access into my attic requires a phillips head screwdriver to open.

Roger
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 06:31 PM
Roger
I am going to respectfully disagree with part of your statement... this should be interesting [Linked Image]

If the floor boards are screwed down, I would consider that inaccessible as per
Art 100.
I see the screws to an access door as different than the screws in say, sheetrock or the flooring.
By backing the screws out from the access door, the door is opened. Backing the screws from the flooring or sheetrock (I know you did not mention sheetrock, I am just trying to impress a point), that is removing part of the building finish.

Pierre
Posted By: Zapped Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 08:55 PM
I have to agree with PCBelarge on this one.

Two things you must consider:

1. Someone other than yourself will likely be looking for this box someday. Having suffered (too many times to count) through trying to find a box hidden the way you describe, I would hate to be the guy searching for this one.

2. What makes LOGICAL sense will not always pass inspection. Technically, I think I would have a real hard time convincing any inspector that I've ever dealt with that this could be defined as "accessible".

An attic access door with a screw latch is considerablly more obvious than one of several floorboards.

My opinion: don't do it!
Posted By: iwire Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 09:15 PM
I doubt I could sell this to an inspector around here and I doubt I would try. (Never say never. [Linked Image])

But I think Roger makes a good point.

Pierre
Quote
Backing the screws from the flooring ....., that is removing part of the building finish

There is nothing in the definition of accessible that says we can not remove the buildings finish only that we can not damage the building finish.

Quote
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

We remove the buildings finish every time we lift a ceiling tile out of a suspended ceiling. [Linked Image]

Interesting topic for sure, how about the access for hot tubs that is usually a building finish that needs to be unscrewed?

Bob
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 10:25 PM
Hello Pierre,
Quote
this should be interesting [Linked Image]
LOL. [Linked Image]

My point is as Bob said,
Quote
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

Here is my attic access [Linked Image]
notice the sheetrock screws that are through the sheetrock and into the joist and must be removed to allow entrance, would this be different than a floor board screwed into a floor joist?

I know there are only two screws, but would four, six, or eight make any difference if removing them caused no damage to the building?

IMO a screw that is accessible in itself is a removable fastner.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-15-2004).]
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Accessibility Question - 08/15/04 10:42 PM
I knew this might get interesting - it is better to use more than one head to try and figure some of this stuff out.

Access doors, such as Roger has mentioned, and any other access door are designed and installed for the purpose.

My next question is; Would you consider flooring that is screwed down, with a junction box under that flooring to fulfill the requirement of the junction box being accessible? Or sheetrock that is screwed in place covering a jbox to also fulfil the same requirement.

The access doors give us a hint something may be behind it, the flooring and wall covering leaves us no clue.

Pierre


[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 08-15-2004).]
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 01:48 AM
Quote
If the floor boards are screwed down, I would consider that inaccessible as per
Art 100.

The floor boards in my mom's house are screwed down. How would you know where the box is hidden under them, or to even think that that was done? Also a subsequent owner may install carpeting or parquet flooring or such over the existing floorboards. Now the box is really not accessable. Maybe you should mount the boxes in holes in the floor boards with appropriate covers.
Posted By: Pete Magsig Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 02:22 AM
How about if the floor boards were labelled in some permanent way?

I tend to agree with Pierre that an access panel looks like an access panel, whereas floorboards are pretty much just floorboards. One option, I suppose, would be to build a trap door into the floor.

I also agree with 'Zapped' - the last thing I want to have happen is someone in the future trying to guess where things are. [I've done a heck of a lot of hard work figuring out what's been done to this house in the past: wiring the garbage disposal into an ungrounded light socket? Yikes!]

Any other opinions or suggestions?
Posted By: e57 Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 07:08 AM
I originally avoided this.... (after arguing about "accessible" behind a stove)

If it were an obvious access panel... Yeah! But floor boards, no... You'd never find it, if you were not the guy who installed it. And, in a floor, are you going to be responcable for someone putting a foot in it? Say the 400lbs woman standing on one high heeled shoe. Looks like a fine tailored (out-of-style)law-suit....
Posted By: iwire Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 08:04 AM
As much as it makes sense that we know where to look for a JB what code section could be used to fail what Pete describes?

An inspector can not fail something just because they do not like it, or for what may happen in the future.

Bob
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 09:51 AM
Bob
you are up early today [Linked Image]
In my inspection, this installation as described would get a 'redtag', not because I do not like, but because the NEC requires jboxes to be accessible, and behind floor boards that are screwed down is stretching the 'semantics' a bit too far.

Floor boards with tongue and groove -
Let me see I put it under this board, whoops no it was this board, whoops no it was this board, whoops no it was ....

I just read 314.29
"Boxes and conduit bodies shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible witout removing any part of the building or, "...

The definition may not make mention of removing the wall/floor , but 314.29 is very specific about removing the wall or floor finish.
As in Pete's first post, we seemed to have read right over it.

Pierre
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 10:38 AM
Pierre,
Quote
"Boxes and conduit bodies shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible witout removing any part of the building or, "...
taking this litteraly would mean there would be no legal way to install a box in any building except mounted with the cover flush or exposed on a wall. The covered access hole, ceiling tile, etc... are all parts of the building.

Lets go back to the original post, forget the screws and go with HIDDEN finger pulls, what would you use to tag the installation in this case?

The bottom line is a screwed down floor board is not a problem and just because it is not immediatly identifiable as the "right" board doesn't mean it's a violation.

Have you ever tried to locate an attic access in a ceiling with locking type tiles where there is a hidden group of four that is the access and nobody knows which group is the removable group? Would you be able to have them change the ceiling because the access is not easy to find?

BTW,
Quote
Or sheetrock that is screwed in place covering a jbox to also fulfil the same requirement.

Is the sheetrock taped and mudded? If not I'd have to think the screws were left exposed for a reason, could be there is something behind it that needs to be accessable. [Linked Image]

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-16-2004).]
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 11:34 AM
Quote
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
In my opinion the floor boards have "permanently closed in" the box and the box is not accessible. The floor boards are intended to be a permanent part of the structure, an access panel, even when screwed in place is intended to be removed to provide access. It would get a red tag from me.
Don
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 12:55 PM
Don, what if there were a HIDDEN access to a crawl space that as said before was made to fit without nailing in place? (I still say an uncovered screw is a removable fastener no matter what it is holding in place)

Why is going below a building any different then going above a building with an identified access or not?

Take a "Bead Board" ceiling and screw every piece including the one or more that would allow entrance to the attic, looking at it it would be imposible to know which would be which, is this a violation?

Remember there is atleast one that is by definition and design an access into the attic and is being held in place by screws.

Roger
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 02:54 PM
Roger,
Quote
Don, what if there were a HIDDEN access to a crawl space that as said before was made to fit without nailing in place?
If I can't see that it is an access panel then, it gets a red tag. If the floor is marked or a section has a "trim ring" like your attic entry, I would OK it, but just the fact that the floor is screwed in place with visible screws doesn't cut it for me. There has to be some clear indication that access is intended.
Quote
Take a "Bead Board" ceiling and screw every piece including the one or more that would allow entrance to the attic, looking at it it would be imposible to know which would be which, is this a violation?
Again, it gets a red tag, because I can't find or identify an access point.
Don
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 03:56 PM
Don, besides the common sense aspect and good workmanship principals, which You and Pierre are using in you judgment, (and which I appreciate and agree with for the record) where is the requirement for accesses to be recognizable.

I have found locating a jbox buried in blown in insulation to be much more frustrating than backing out a few screws in the wrong place.

If a house had no inside access at all and the vent (held in place by screws [Linked Image]) on the gable end was the only access but was not marked as such, could an inspector make the homeowner install an inside access with a trim or mark the vent with big letters? [Linked Image]

If so, what article or definition would be applicable?

Roger
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Accessibility Question - 08/16/04 11:06 PM
Roger
If the 'accessible' is not recognizable, is it accessible? [Linked Image]

Pierre
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 03:56 AM
How about if you took a sharpie pen and wrote "electrical access panel" on the board in question?
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 04:26 AM
I would be very tempted to mount the j-boxes flush with the upper flooring surface, and cutting some 8x8-inch pieces of ¼-inch steel diamond plate for covers—drilling holes to match the 1-, 2-gang or 4-square j-boxes. ;-}
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 10:36 AM
Pierre,
Quote
Roger
If the 'accessible' is not recognizable, is it accessible? [Linked Image]
absolutely, it's just not obvious.

I still haven't seen an article or any wording pointed out, that says an access must be identified or relatively easy to achieve.

I think it's a good idea and an inspector should suggest it, but I still don't see how it could be red tagged.

Let's say I mark the access, but then install "Tamper Proof" screws in the boxes that uses a tool of a type that 99% of electricians don't carry or even own. We have just used these screws on a juvenile detention facility and used them in some boxes that the 8/32's have fallen out of. How would you handle this?

BTW, the last paragraph would be a cause for Justifiable Murder if I had crawled face down in insulation only to find this was the case. [Linked Image]

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-17-2004).]
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 02:10 PM
Roger,
If it is covered by part of the normally expected building finish and not identified as a removable panel, then in my opinion it is not acessible, because it is "permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building".
Don
Posted By: Roger Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 03:12 PM
Don,
Quote
then in my opinion it is not acessible, because it is "permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building".
here lies the problem, opinions, and mine is the opposite.

I don't agree that a screw or a panel with a finger pull substantiates "permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building" even if it takes some serious hunting.

If it were necessary to damage the finish or membrane when removed, then I am definitely in agreement, but since this is not the case, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. [Linked Image]

Roger
Posted By: George Re: Accessibility Question - 08/17/04 07:08 PM
You guys are getting too picky.

The NEC is there to resolve conflicts. If the contractor and the AHJ agree on access, all is good.

If not, go to court and have a judge decide (or have a fist fight).
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