Homeowner wants a 30 amp 125 volt trailer plug out by the driveway to power up the camper while its sittin in the yard.We will have to trench out from the house and mount the outlet on a post next to the camper.Does the 30 amp 125 volt plug require GFCI protection.We plan to run pvc out from the house to a 2-gang bell box with a bubble cover to protect it from rain.

210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

... "outdoors" is (3)

It says 15 and 20a, not 30a.

Might want to dig a little deeper. I don't have my book handy but I believe all outlets in an RV park have to be GFI. That may carry over to a residence. I know I put a GFI on my personal 50 amp RV outlet without even thinking about it. Considering how bad RVs are wired in general, its cheap protection. See my pictures titled 'Vintage Motorhome' for a typical RV wiring job.

Why not use a Midwest or Milbank RV power outlet it will look better and be more durable I did not find anything requiring GFCI protection on a 30A receptacle.

NORCAL...I like your idea about the RV power outlet by Midwest or Milbank. My supply house can't find anything like what you are refering to. Do you have a part # so I can track it down???

thanx, shorcircuit

For what it is worth, Article 551 has no requirement for GFCI protected receptacles, including the 15 and 20 ampere sizes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis, Utility Power Guy

Like the Midwest or Milbank stuff, they seem to be the ‘original’ raintite-while-in-use receptacles. Also made by Square-D and Siemens {with integral circuit breaker}...


http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/El...%20Outlet %20Panels/PAK/1140CT9201.pdf


www.sea.siemens.com/resident/docs/RPBR-S0007-1003.pdf




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 08-03-2004).]

Midwest model # P13.

Thanx for your helpfull responces...I also found a website that has RV power equipment,
www.rvpoweroutlet.com

I ordered the powerpack with the 30 amp 125volt plug and disconnect for $59.95
They told me the 30 amp switch also provides overcurrent protection.

shortcircuit

$ 60.00 Yikes! I paid about $25 for the poweroutlet only, and for $10 or so more could have had one W/ a C/B.

OK, maybe I'm missing something here but why would you want a breaker in the outlet box? 30A should be a dedicated circuit with protection at the panel, right?

BTW, I got my 50A in-use at the orange store for less than 20 bucks. I never heard of the company but it seems well built.
Has anyone else noticed that HD seems to be carrying a lot more "unusual" brands and less recognizable stuff lately?

Big Jim...section 551.77(B) requires a disconnect switch or circuit breaker in the site supply equipment for disconnecting the power to the RV. I don't want the homeowner pluging his camper in while loads in the camper are on.

I don't trade with the big orange house (home crapo)...they have hurt all the trades with there low priced items that are available to home owners.I'm so sick of my customers saying I saw it at the home crapo for $$...how come you charged me this much $$ for this part :<(


shortcircuit

Short, just point out to your customer that steak is a lot cheaper down at the Piggly Wiggly than it is in a resturant too.
They are paying for service, as are you when you pay more at the supply house.
The customer would really be griping if they had to pay for you to walk around the BORG looking for a warm body who can help you find the things you need ... to "save" a buck.
I am with you on this. For some reason we, as a country, have abandoned the idea of paying for service (searching only for the best price), then we bitch because we don't get good service.

Duplicate

[This message has been edited by Big Jim (edited 08-05-2004).]

I'll have to educate myself a little better on that. I had assumed the plug was a listed disconnecting means and only an in-use cover was required

I think Home Depot has just about run it's course. They will be big for a while but more and more people are starting to want better quality products. Lowes and Eagle, although similar, seem to be getting into slightly higher quality items. I tend to use them because they are so handy but I sure don't forget where the distributors are. As soon as you step one inch away from pure commodity stuff, you need a real supplier.

Do I have a misprinted CD-ROM?


What about the last sentence of 551.71?

I just wanted to add that any RV site requires a 20 amp 125volt GFI receptical in addition to the 30 or 50 amp outlet. 551.71
and as previously stated, a disconnect is required.
thanks
Buck

I agree that a disconnect switch is required for an RV outlet in an RV park but not for a single one at a private residence. In a park, the overcurrent protection may be a substantial distance from the outlet so that requirement makes sense. Most decently wired parks I've seen have a pedestal with a 20, 30, and 50A recepticle all protected by their own breakers.

Buck... I interpet that the requirement of 551.71 that RV site electrical supply have a 125-volt 20-amp plug addresses a RV site only and a 30-amp 125-volt outlet installed at a single family dwelling for RV power does not require the 20 amp receptacle.

Article 551 part VII Recreational Vechicle Parks

I will make sure that the homeowner does have a 125-volt GFCI protected receptacle nearby for their safety.

Maybe the NFPA needs to address installations such as this one in the 2008 code.

Shortcircuit and BigJim
You have made a good point concerning the installation at a dwelling as opposed to an RV park. The requirement for a 20 amp, 125v GFI recepticle is under Part 7 of 551, titled Recreational Vehicle Parks, (not dwellings). I hope there is more input on this issue.
Many thanks
Buck

I suspect this may be one of those places where the code has not quite kept pace with changing realities. With the tremendous growth in the RV industry, more and more people are parking them at their residence and want to have power to them. I know of several who use the RV as a spare bedroom / guesthouse for visitors. Things like water and sewer connections will need to be addressed in their respecrive codes as well.
For my personal RV, I did not install a disconnect switch at the outlet but the breaker is within about 25 feet. I did choose to use a GFI breaker based on how much junk wiring I've seen in RVs. After all this discussion, I think I would use an outlet with an integral disconnect in and future installs I do. If I were to author a piece of code, I would mandate the GFI.

Does anyone think that a seperate ground rod is necessary at the RV supply equipment(connected to the grouding conductor) to disperse a lightning strike? This would seem to be similar to whats required at a seperate building, such as a detached garage.

No, cord and plug connected equipment does not normally need a ground rod.

 
(1) GFCIs within receptacle cans are probably desirable over those located at circuit origins—likely partially limiting nuisance trips.

(2) For 50-ampere trailer receptacles, NEC 550 calls out signage:

 Turn Disconnecting Switch or Circuit Breaker Off Before Inserting or Removing Plug

   effectively mandating breakers at receptacles. Similar requirements are not specified for 30-ampere receptacles or for RV circuits, but maybe someday the requirement will extend to those situations.

(3) Agreed that some trailerhouse wiring is egregious, but there is one qualifying factory AC-hipot test that has to have increased installation quality to some degree. Given past notoriously bad trailerhouse-wiring “expertise/workmanship”—at least some of the riffraff is weeded out with NEC 550/551-specified 900-volt/1-minute//1080-volt/1-second “hot-to-neutral” dielectric-test levels. [I believe this test has been required of California trailer manufacturers for about three decades, and indirectly limited a degree of near-criminal loss of life and porerty.] Though not so much of a problem nowadays, the test would not help eliminating sleazy aluminum branch-circuit terminations.

(4) NEC 551-60 also calls out ground-continuity and receptacle-polarity tests. Trumpy has recently discussed Portable Appliance Testing—apparently common in NZ, AUS (and the UK?)  A trailer might be viewed as an “appliance” of sorts. I suppose factory dielectric tests could be considered be roughly comparable to (non-reoccurring) PAT tasks.




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 08-09-2004).]

Don't have the book in front of me again but I think the 550 section is house trailers and 551 is RV's and RV parks. It looks to me like a single outlet at a residence is not really covered by those sections. I looked around a little and did not come up with anything that actually allows for a 50 amp RV outlet at a residence. Anybody got any ideas on a section that would directly allow them?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that there doesn't have to be anything that specifically allows it. As long as everything is done using approved methods, and there's nothing that specifically prohibits it, it should be OK, no?

I'd have to agree with the rv park codes not being applicable here as this is a home.Therefore seems to me that only that section of the code that applies to a 30A outdoor receptacle would apply as far as the code is concerned.
Although for safety reasons i like the signage idea with the disconnect as who knows just what sort of load might be on when a homeowner plugs this thing in.
I could be wrong here but what says this outlet isn't for use for a welder in your yard anyways.or anything else you could think of to use this outlet for.
Thanks for you time.

[This message has been edited by santishian (edited 08-10-2004).]

SolarPowered, I was scanning thru the permitted section for residential wiring. Electric heat, range and dryer outlets are specifically allowed 240v hi amp circuits. I am just wondering if that specific listing for residential precludes other 50 amp circuits?

I don't know what you're looking at, specifically. If it's 210.23(C), I believe that that section is specificially referring to circuits supplying two or more receptacles, so it wouldn't apply to what we're discussing.

However, I'm no Code maven. I was just stating what I think I understand, hoping to see what those more knowledgeable than I have to say about it.

Iwire...as for the ground rod...the RV would (I guess) be the cord and plugged connected equipment in this case...and the RV power supply that I am installing for suppling power to the RV would be similar to a sub-panel installaton at a remote building, which would require a seperate ground rod if it contained more than one branch circuit as specified in 250.32
It is my understanding that the intention of the groundrod is to help disperse a potential lightning strike.I understand that this is not a remote building, but I think that a ground rod would help divert a lightning strike to earth more effectively than none at all. Does the code prohibit the use of a ground rod for this RV power supply installation anywhere??? I'm just trying to do an installation that is above the requirements of the code.

Shortcircuit first I gave a really short answer to your last question so here goes the long answer.

The code section requiring the ground rod for a separate structure is this one.

part of 250.32

The circuit feeding the outlet the trailer plugs in is one branch circuit, so the exception is available to you if you want.

Yes you can add a ground rod any place in an electrical system you want and connect it to the equipment grounding conductor at a place of your choosing.


Will it really do anything for lightning protection?

That is beyond my knowledge but it certainly will not hurt anything.

Bob,
Would a circuit going to a RV receptacle be considered a branch circuit (by definition). I think it may be a tough sell. Most RV's have OCPD's within, so the branch circuit would probably be from the OPCD in the RV to the outlet(s) within.
But I can see where it could be gray, since before you plug in the RV, the circuit serving the 30A recept would be the branch circuit, then when you plug in the RV, it becomes a feeder (presto ).

Ron that is a tough one that I did consider.

Here is my opinion take it for what it is worth I do not have facts to back it up.

The NEC does not consider those overcurrent devices in the trailer as the whole trailer is one listed, labeled, piece of utilization equipment.

As an example, my home stereo amplifier has a fuse for the incoming power, does that make the wiring to my wall outlet a feeder?

Looking at this from another direction if we do consider this circuit to be a feeder what section of the NEC relives us of the ground rod requirement?

I do not see anyone driving rods on a regular basis for RVs. That means thousands are in violation or there is a code section that relives us from 250.32.

This is how I came up with my opinion, I would be more than happy to hear other opinions.

Bob

Edit here to hear

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 08-15-2004).]