Would you ask for GFCI protection for the area on the left (foreground)?

If I were homeowner--absolutely.

If I were AHJ--nope. It might be a good idea, but I don't think the NEC requires it here. Too far from the sink.

210.8(A)(6)specifies GFCI in kitchens where receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces. Is this a countertop surface? Since "countertop surface" is not defined, could you call it a work surface or something else? Is this a part of the kitchen? Food for thought here.

Wirenut: Where in 21.8 is proximity to the sink addressed?

Electircman: Food for thought indeed. Thats why I posted it

I think we can get some good conversation here.

BTW: Where does the kitchen end? Is it the passageway on the left? Is it the transition from the hardwood floor to the carpet?

Let me add that the material is the same as the countertop near the sink.

Ryan, it looks like a "desktop" to me.

Stamcon: I have no problem with your interpretation, but would the judge and jury have a problem with it if someone got killed? A human death is what got the requirement in commercial kitchens, as you know.

Quote by Ryan
Like the firehouse kitchen thread, huh?

Ryan,

What do the Plans say that room is?


Bill

Here's my take on this. If there is no code that would define a line (real or imaginary)
to separate this area from the kitchen, then by the open space alone, I'd consider it an extension of the kitchen by design.

Roger

Ryan, when the '99NEC specifies GFCI's on receptacles serving residential kitchen
"countertops" and not all kitchen receptacles, where do we draw the line for safety? Why not all receptacles in the house be GFCI and AFCI? When the NEC considers the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room and dining room as different rooms(small appliance circuits), who makes the call as to what the room is? What's stated on the plans?

steve

Ryan I would have to say yes gfci protection. It is a counter top. And it seems to be part of the kitchen. Sure it looks like a desk area. Is it 29" rather than 36" high? Even if thats the case it is still couter to me. I think. The more I think the less I am sure. What I am sure about is somebody screwed up bigtime on the device color. The white looks like crap! That stuff drives me crazy.

210.52(C)Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, ....

There is a definite location(s) specified as to where the countertops are required to have receptacles, and 210.8(A)(6) requires KITCHEN countertop areas to be protected by GFCIs, not dining room countertop spaces.

Now a determination of where the countertop area is located needs to be accessed. If the drawings (prints) designate this as a dining room, than GFCI protection is not required. If the area is not designated, then the AHJ has to make a judgement call as to what the space represents.

So my answer is, if the prints say it is a dining room, it is required to have receptacle(s), but they are not required to have GFCI protection.

Pierre

I require the "desk" top/counter in kitchens/dining rooms to be GFCI.
This one is seperated from the rest of the counters more than what I see normally. I still would require it to be GFCI, just to try to stay consistent.

One more thing, if this is a counter top, why is the outlet not in a position so that it is not more than 24" from the near edge.
Should another outlet have been installed?

Russ
Where in the NEC do you see where the countertop areas of the dining room require GFCI protection?
I have the 2002 NEC here and I cannot find that requirement.

Pierre

There is no reason to GFI those desk top receps, it's a long way to the kitchen. Looks like part of the dinning room. JMHO.

Poor wording on my part.

Your right the dining room has no GFCI requirement.
This area is more of an extended eating area of the kitchen, and I think the GFCI rule applies.


[This message has been edited by russ m (edited 01-17-2004).]

zapped

You have a point, in this case the areas look like they could be considered seperate,(maybe) I still think I'd ask for the GFCI.

I guess it all comes down to perception. Is it a dining room or part of the kitchen. Most of these houses have a seperate dining room in addition to the room we see here.

I have wired some big homes and there is usually a formal dining room as Russ has mentioned. The prints will usually designate this area as a family room. What purpose would the GFCI serve in the desk/countertop area being discussed?

Pierre

A "Kitchen" will be defined in the 2005 NEC and I believe it says something about: .... "where food is Prepared" .... so that could apply to the location here if the counter was being used to "prepare food"

We will have to wait for the panel action that will become available soon.

Joe

Joe
The definition of kitchen that may be coming to us all soon is not adequate. 'Preparing' food does not make a kitchen. I prepare food on my deck, sometimes when watching a game in my family room, sometimes I shuck corn in my family room. When we have a large party, we will set up in the basement. That definition is not going to work in itself and needs to be left out or changed.

How often does the preparation have to occur, once a day, once a week, once a month, once a year, once?

When those people move into the house and use the desk area as a desk, I would be surprised to see food preparation performed there.
So Would a GFCI really be needed there, and if so why not the rest of the house - just in case.

Pierre

[This message has been edited by PCBelarge (edited 01-19-2004).]

Pierre:

You make some good points, now I am hungry and must stop to Eat!

If that area was to be used for a desk and with a computer, then it probably would be better to put in one of those special TVSS type receptacles or a receptacle on a circuit that conforms to the Isolated Grounding Type with the Orange Triangle.

I think that is a good idea!

Good morning Pierre. I was told that there are several proposals to define "kitchen", and that the one that is being considered more than the others includes "...a space that has permanant provisions for cooking..." With that in mind, you would almost need to have a range and not neccassarily a microwave to meet the definition. That won't help help solve the riddle of the above picture, however.

It seems to me that GFCI's were required in places that has or could have water in near proximity. Kitchens, bathrooms, garages basement outdoors, roof tops. Makes sense to protect some one in that case. One could always have water in the living room, at least enough to cause death from a shock but is it common??. Looks like desk to me and its in area away from the kitchen sink.

From what I can see, the area is not in the kitchen, and would not require GFCI protection. The call would be up to the judgement of the inspector, subject to appeal according to local law.

I am with those that say look at the plans.

I can just see the AHJ squirming at the appeal when asked to read the words on the plans.

Plan approval is the place to settle this issues.

If that was my house, I would call it a "desktop." Then my wife would have a pile of bills, junk mail, and old school work there so high that you would have no room for any food preperation. You wouldn't even be able to see the desktop! So GFI protection would not be required there!

If this desk was to the left of the stove in the picture would it be required to be GFCI?

FYI: I did not require GFCI protection.

Is it a kitchen? Than yes.

Ryan
You did not require a GFCI protected receptacle. Then I am going to assume that is not a kitchen countertop. My question is - is that receptacle required?

Pierre

Hi Pierre. In all honesty, I don't recall if the receptacles in question were required. If they were required to satisfy the wall space provision, they are less than 5.5 feet AFF, so they could count as required receptacles.

We see a lot of these installations, and we decided that if you make it obvious that the are is a desk, GFCI protection will not be required.

The NEC does not differentiate between a desk in a kitchen and a kitchen. If it is in a kitchen it shall be protected by a ground fault.

Jeff, in this case there are two questions. #1 - Is this area of the house part of the kitchen? Dining room? Breakfast room? Pantry?
Or other?
#2 - Is a "desk" a "counter"?

If the area is not kitchen or dining room(or wet bar), no GFCI required. If area is considered in the kitchen or dining room, then is the desk a "counter"?

(99 NEC)
steve

[This message has been edited by stamcon (edited 02-06-2004).]