Gentleman,

I was an electrical contractor in my own business for 15 years. I have been doing electrical wok since 1975. I am now an AHJ and I have to inspect your work, Believe me I am on your side. However if/when I fail some one for doing something wrong ( And I can quote you a NEC code section rule) I don't want to hear the excuse, "Well I have been doing it this way for 20 years!" I believe that I have an advantage over some AHJ's because I know a lot of the triacks of the trade. I know how to by pass safety features of an install to make breakers fit in a service panel, ( My old boss taught me those old tricks) and I know how to get past an inspection when things aren't always right. I tried to get away with all those excuses when I was a contractor. Howevr some of our "Senior" contractors always complain to me if I fail them for something, and they get back to me saying that, "They have been doing it this way for 20 years." I politely tell them that the code changes every all the time and that we have to keep up with the new codes. They don't always want to hear that one.

Harold,

I can sympathize with you. I've gotten a whole new perspective about this business when I started doing inspections part time about 4 years ago.

There are things that I really hate to hear, one of them being "When did they change that." Hard not to give a smart mouth reply.

I guess there isn't much you can tell these guys other then they have been doing it wrong for 20 years. Their 20 year arguement is really weak anyhow. After all, you're the one that will be signing off on the installation saying, more or less, that it is safe.

We have an interesting situation here in the Mountain State. As an inspector, I am required to take continuing education classes. There is no such requirement for electricians, 40% of which have been grandfathered in & never even took any type of exam.So I guess I have to know the latest code requirements, but the person doing the installation doesn't.

Ahhh, well, Merry Christmas.

Tom

Good topic. I can't help but think that I get a bit more than my fair share of this speech as as a 25 year old inspector.

I try to discuss changes in technology and changes in the code when I get this fight, and some listen and some don't.

I have always found that 50% of an inspector's job is education. 30% for the inspector and 20% from the inspector. Some inspectors here in Connecticut will even hold after hours classes for their contractors to present common code subjects. I have been known to supply lists of common code violations with the applications. My current job is 100% education for both inspectors and contractors. I love it!

Tom,

Here in NJ the contractors have to get 34 hours of CEU's every 3 years and as an AHJ I need both the 34 hours and I need five 5 hour courses every three years to keep my inspectors license. I just heard that as an AHJ I can "shelve" my license by not taking the 34 hour course, but then I wouldn't be doing any contracting anymore. I already turned in my business permit because I am a full time AHJ and I don't want to keep all the bond and insurence to run a small part time contracting business. Also in my original post, I really do respect the old timers who have been in the business for 20 years because I was in my own for 15 and I know how tough it is to get out there every day, make a living and a profit. It ain't easy anymore.

Hello Rayan, Harold and Earl
Happy Holiday and I hope you are all ready for the New Year!!!

This is a subject that I feel very very strongly about. Education in our industry for open shops and continuing education for journeymen is pretty much a very minor event in NY.
I have a small training center in lower NY, of which I draw students from NJ, Conn. and NYC. They all have one thing in common. There are too few if any places for electrical education that is relatively close to home - travel becomes a large part of why they receive little to no education.
I will also say that paying for the classes is not as much of an issue as I originally thought, time is the big issue. These guys will plunk down the cash, but find it very difficult to come to a class that has more than two running weeks.
Once they are in the classes, they are usually very happy they have come and they will repeat with other classes.

The real problem I can see is the lack of understanding WHY they do what they do. Most of the guys are very good at the installation, but you ask them why and the 'deer in the headlights' look prevails through the class.

In our area there are no requirements for education (other than apprentices in the Union), these men/women can be in the industry for 30 years and never open a book.WOW!!!
Most people in our industry came to work right out of highshool, they do not read as well as they could. They pick up the code book and do not understand it too well, so they stop reading it.

One of the biggest problems that brings all of this to a skidding halt is what happens at inspections. From one area to another, they do not know what to expect from each inspector, so instead of learning the code, they learn about the different ways the different inspectors inspect.
Adding all of this together and it is a mess.
But... I believe with an overall effort it can be worked out.

I now have a class that has been running every week for eight weeks - with five of the local inspectors. The class was supposed to be for five weeks, but now will run until the last week of june(requested by all of the inspectors), not one of them is paid for the class time,and we are doing this from 5pm to 9pm. These inspectors are all doing their homework and are learning a lot. They were a little embarassed at first, but now we are on a run and it is actually a lot of fun. The four hour classes fly by and I surprise test them every once and awhile. Their grades have dramatically improved and there is one very important issue that is slowly being resolved.... they are all starting to get on the same page and it shows in the field inspections. You should hear some of our discussions

I have one long term goal - helping to make our industry as great as it possibly can be, education is the answer.
BTW- I am the only place they can get classes in a 75 mile radius, other than the union hall and Boces. UNBELIEVEABLE!!!

Pierre

Pierre,

God bless you! Tell your inspectors that Connecticut has an education program for free. Call 860.685.8330 to get a copy of our Career Development Syllabus. Three hour classes from 9-12 AM or 6:30-9:30 PM, various places throughout CT.

You know, you can also drive 90mph for quite a while, but you'll eventually be stopped by law enforcement.
"We always do it that way" (the wrong way) is no better an excuse for electrical violations than it is for speeding...doesn't make it right, or safe...Tell it to the judge.
I hear this all the time...S

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 12-28-2003).]

some of you inspectors here should try and forward your code concerns without a shred of enforcability.... take it from me, it'll fine tune any tact you may think is already primo...

~S~

Sparky I read all your posts and if I understand half of them I am doing well.

Is there a 2002 Sparky Handbook that will clarify what you are trying to say.

I guess you will have to dumb it down for me, I am bad with innuendo.

Sparky: 110.26 and 110.16 are unenforcible, dur to the phrase "require". Is this what you are talking about?

I believe that sparky is in an area with NO code enforcement by a goverment agency. If you try to insist on doing things according to the NEC you will always lose business to those who will do the job cheaper. If most of your competition is the fly by nites and someone's cousin who thinks the know electrical work because the watched a T.V. show once, and you try do it correctly but you cost more, you will have problems.
In my home state of Nebraska we have a state wide legally required inspection program with state employed inspectors. The work done is mostly of a higher quality than the areas of Iowa (outside of cities that have inspectors) that does NOT have any inspectors. The difference in pay for a journeyman can be as much as $20.00/hr. I have seen places that pay as little as $8.00/hr for a self proclamed journeyman (no test availble or required). The quality of the work is about what you would expect from those who have little if any training and who get such low pay.
The areas where permits, licensing and honest inspections occur have definitly higher quality of work and higher pay for the journeyman.
I have found that it is almost impossible to compete in those "free for all" areas. Listing quality work that meets code looses 98% of the time to a lower bid.
We have a lot of caring people on this forum. But how many of us have to cheapen our work to get jobs when the fly by nites are your normal competition.

Thank you nesparky


it is not so complex Bob.

NEC enforcement is quite inequitable from locale' to locale' with the overall level of safe installs following suit due to Mr. Handyman serving as common denominator...

I have the '02 HB on disc to e-mail and explain my concerns to customers, whom could just as well blow me off

serve as the last bastion of the NEC in a powerless position with the roof over your head at stake.... and after a while you'll realize that all the related trade orginizations could care less as well...

~S~

Thanks Earl, I will pass the number on to them.

Pierre

I have found in every area where there is lax enforcement of the codes, there is always a nitch for the contractor who touts his work as being a cut above. It may be that he can only land small jobs, but he can name his price. Reputation for quality work is hard to come by, but priceless when achieved.

True earlydean, probably the best example this forum has had was Virgil, aka 66wvsparky who aspired to rise above the 'doing it for 20 years' crowd.

however it must be said that as the code grows does it's enforcement grow proportionaly?

have all these orginizations lobbied individual states on our behalf?

seems that all i keep reading about all those frivilous jubliee's those trade associations have, guess that's where all the dues i paid out in the last decade went...

oh well....i suppose you could ask around in 2024, yet i must presume we'll have our share of the 'doin' it for 40 years' crowd rather rooted...


~S~

It is a never-ending struggle. Our system is too diverse to allow anything else. At best we have 50 states passing 50 different laws, but, many states don't have any laws on building code, or allow each and every town to pass their own. Which amounts to hundreds of differing building code laws across our land. Compounding this further is the fact that each town or military base will hire their own inspector with his own biases and interpretations. No wonder the electrician is confused. Thank God we have the NFPA, and the NEC. It is our trades saving grace.

who's struggle should it be earlydean ?

the NEC and NFPA both start with National don't they? one would think they could act accordingly with some level of harmony with state constituency

really, how many of these 'gotta edj-o-cate those 'lectricians' threads do we need endure here in cyberspace ?

don't they work for us?

~S~

Sparky just how do expect the NFPA to force any State, City or Town to adopt the NEC.

The only way the Federal govt. gets States to do what the feds want is by extortion, do this or we will not give you x dollars.

If you want the NEC adopted/enforced in your area you will have to lobby your political types to do so.

As one of those working in states that have strong use and enforcement of the NEC I have no desire to see the NFPA throwing away money lobbing for adoption in areas that are not interested.

I see you complain about the lack of enforcement in your area pretty much every post, is it getting you anywhere?

I will say I doubt I could work in an area with out enforcement it would truly bother me, I would move or change jobs most likely.


JMO, Bob

Iwire
You are correct that the only way to get effective and fair code enforcement is thru the local or state politicians. Of those that I have personally met, I would have to say that electrical or building code adoption and enforcement are NOT a priority.
As long as no large public outcry is heard, they will not take the time to do anything about it.
Even if they finally do adopt a code, it then has to be enforced by someone. Then comes the fight of getting inspectors on the payroll. Then will the local district attourney and judges even take the case?
I have seen cases where inspectors issue citations and nothing happens. If the local jurisdiction does not have criminal penalties for unlicensed people, the fly by niters just walk away. The building owner may or may not have any action taken.
It takes a strong law and effective enforcement to slow down the fly by niters who hurt our trade. If any of those who can legally enforce code wimp out along the way you have accomplished nothing.
The problem is all this takes money and many local goverments are crying about going broke. Many of the citizens in areas that do not have enforcement agencies do NOT want them.
A few caring individuals will have a very hard time getting politicians to even start the process.
If the NFPA and IAEA or other simular groups do not help out, the job of getting fair and effective code enforcement will not happen.

Gotta say, this thread brings many issues to light - more than a text reply can show, but nevertheless very serious and real
issues from both sides of the coin.

First off, I must say how much appreciation I have for you, Harold, to "Keep It Real" and also to voice your concerns here.

I have also been "Doing It" for 20 Years (actually more, but 20 Years covers when I knew whaddaheck was going on with the
stuff I was working on!).
In that amount of time, I have dealt with lots and lots of different attitudes in the field + Designing areas - good and bad. I
also watched things change almost over night, as far as the types of equipment installed and used by Clients.

It was apparent many Years back, that not all things will (or should) be installed the same in the future.
Another apparent thing was how to find out the "Right" interpretation of a given article (goes beyond NEC minimum compliance
here).

With that said, I do not fight with Inspectors, just because "I" may have done something different Years back; but then again, I
invite discussion relating to code compliance - with the intentions of learning something new and being sure that either one
(myself or Inspector) is correctly interpreting a given article.

Very rarely is there any conflict with an AHJ, but when there is, I try as hard as possible to keep things in perspective.
That can be difficult when someone from your Company has conflicts with an Inspector, and you are trying to put the fires out.

Most of the Inspectors I have dealt with were in the field for at least 10 years, but decided to 'Branch' into Inspections, and
eventually became full time Inspectors.

Now for some Monkey Wrenches!!!

In California, the NEC is the "Basis" of what the California Electrical Code (CEC) is derived from, and the State-Wide minimum
code to comply to is the CEC (currently, the 2001 CEC - based on 1999 NEC).
While the majority of it "Mirrors" the 1999 NEC, there are a few amendments, which are Specific to California.

In Southern California, there are several local AHJs which have amended the current CEC. City of Los Angeles is one, and
County of Los Angeles is another. Each of these has different amendments to the CEC.
There are a few more areas with City/County local code amendments.

When working in these areas, you have to be familiar with the jurisdiction's compliancy - or end up with a correction notice
referencing an article like:

* 93.0207(n),
or
* P/BC 2001-18

Easily referenced when using the local Electrical code, but try finding articles with numeric structures, like the examples
above, in the NEC.

When people with little experience in these local areas do installs, they typically have compliance issues. Most are resolved
very smoothly and no problems result.

Then there's Murphy's Law!

After trying to put out these types of fires, I feel like "Coles-Law" (thinly sliced Cabbage!).

The last "Coles-Law" scenario for me was, at first a "No-Brainer" in concept - but turned out to be a "Whaddaheck" situation!
The conflict was in regards to distance between two (or more) driven rods.
Thinking "No Problem"? So did I!

My Father was doing a Service Upgrade on a Residential Project. 1 Family Dwelling, 200 Amp Service - upgraded from the
existing 60 amp(???) 120/240V 3 wire, which was also an upgrade version to the original 30 amp (???) 120V 2 wire
Service (remaining in use were the original "Use A Penny to Fix That Pesky Fuse Blowing Problem" fuses).

My Father is a real stickler of the "Did It This Way For 'X' Number Of Years" protocol, so when creating the GES, only drives a
single rod to supplement the Cold Water Electrode.
Calls for Inspection on the Service, receives correction notice about the single rod - prove < 25 Ohms, or drive a second
rod.

Father contacts me to verify what's up with this (the correction notice was written up rather ambiguously, and it took us both
awhile to "De-Code" what it was referring to!).
No articles were quoted.

After determining the thing was referring to the GES, I asked how many rods (if any) were used. Found out only one used, so
suggested to drive an additional rod, and bond it accordingly to the GES - to form a common Electrode.
Also mentioned to drive the second rod NO LESS THAN six feet from the first rod, and if any additional rods are to be
installed, space them NO LESS THAN six feet from any other rods.

He returns to the job, drives a second rod six feet from the other rod, connects it as needed, then reschedules Inspection.

Receives ANOTHER Correction Notice! This time it says the rod CANNOT BE MORE THAN SIX FEET FROM ANY OTHER
ELECTRODE - including the previously driven rod.

Father contacts me again, this time is pissed off at me for giving him bunk information!

To sum things up, there is still an on-going issue within that jurisdiction, as to how far the rods must be separated!
The Inspector that failed the rods for being "Too Far Apart" is a seasoned veteran!

What was done to (try and) get the thing passed was flat out silly!
A third rod was driven between the other two, so resulted in 3 feet between the rods.
All rods were connected to form a common electrode.
Inspector again turned it down, and requested the "Third Rod" (the farthest one away - at 6 feet from the originally installed
first rod) be removed, and re-driven no more than 6 inches from the original first rod! Also that the one which was "Between"
the outer two (3 feet from first rod) be disconnected and not used - but in this case, he will allow it to stay connected.

Here is an example of a very simple situation, going totally Twilight Zone!
I was stuck in the middle of more than I expected! trying to explain what's wrong with the way the Inspector is interpreting
regarding the ground rods, what is the reasoning for the distances, how to avoid this in the future when working in this
Jurisdiction - then on the other side, verifying whaddaheck's going on with this issue, by E-mailing the Building Department.

I succeeded in bringing the issue to light - but last I heard, no headway was made! I was just trying to find out if they had
done some special testing and found out the rods should be close together! It was simply a mis understanding / mis
interpretation of 250-52 (1999 NEC), but sure got the fur flying!

Things like this make me take a new view towards "No-Brainer" scenarios, as "Ohhh-Brainer" scenarios with "Tylenol-Required"
solutions.

Trying to satisfy these types of conflicts goes well beyond the "Code Savvy" abilities of anyone, and strikes directly into
Psychology and Diplomacy! I'm such an Analyzer, things like this are often times too annoying for others to listen to, and I am
baffled why no one else can understand such a simple thing (i.e. the distance between the rods).
Place me in an environment where everyone else's personality is heavily in the "Ruler" aspect, and we can spend hours getting
nowhere!
Throw in a "Relater" or "Entertainer", and things change.

OK, so much for Psych 101!

Lastly, in regards to non-code enforced work, even though the entire State has not only adopted the NEC - but amended it,
that doesn't mean that "Fly-By-Nighters" with extremely low bids do not exist and flourish here.

I really enjoy our industry. I also enjoy the related areas - such as Telecom, Data, Computers, Security / CCTV, Controls, and
of course - Engineering!, but sometimes it's hard to keep my enthusiasm (sp???) up, and more and more I am contemplating a
career change.

The thing I really feel proud of was the first day I realized just how little I knew - how much there is to learn - and how it's
impossible to even reach 00.1% of full knowledge on any subject - especially in the Electrically inclined areas!

At first it was a scary thought! Happened many many years ago.
One day I was at work on some project, and thought about what I knew + what abilities I had exactly 1 year earlier.
Thought I knew quite a lot of stuff that 1 year prior, but as compared to what I could do and what I knew that day - it wasn't
even in the same realm! Lucky I could walk and chew gum back then!
Then the thoughts of what the following year will make "Today" look like popped in, and it all fell into place:

"Each Year, I Learn 10 Times More Than The Previous Year, Yet I Know 100 Times Less".

Such has been stated by many members here: "the more one learns, the more that person realizes how little they actually know!"

My target goals should place me within the intelligence parameters of single-celled organisms by the year 2008!

At the same time, I will be slowly morphing into "Mr. Magoo"! (refers to the NEC handbook format thread).

OK, that's enough soapbox'en for me!

See ya.

Scott35

Scott do you ever get blisters on your finger tips.

Just kidding I enjoy reading your posts.

Bob

Scott, and to all else here, Thank you for your praises, I am not sure if I posted this note here or other places, but I said before that I too have been in the business since 1975 and I learned all the tricks from my old boss. I knew how to make almost any breaker fit in any panel, I knew how to defeat safety features in breakers etc. Once I went in my own business, I had to relearn for my self that there is the old wrong way to do it and the correct way of doing it right. So when I do go out on inspections now, I know a lot of all the old tricks. Like when guys install light fixtures on masonary walls without boxes. "Because masonary doesn't burn!" That was one my boss taught me many years ago. Or how to install zip cord in the walls for hockey puck lights after the AHJ does his final inspection. Or tapping undercounter lights off the kitchen counter receptacle, or adding a cheater breaker in a panel so that there are 25 breakers in a 24 circuit panel because the homeowner doesn't want to pay for a new sub panel. Most of the times I catch the EC's doing something wrong, they will admit to it and then they will just fix it. No big deal. It is when I get one of the guys who have been doing it for 20 years get in my face. Then I have to get tough and show them the code and say, NO! It has to meet the code. I also pride myself on keeping it consistent. If I fail one person for something I will fail every one for the same problem. I also am more than willing to listen to their side of the story. If they have a problem with my call, then I will listen to their side and if they can convince me that it is safe, and meets the intent of the NEC then I will reverse my decision and pass the job. I for one don't know everything and I feel that I should be able to learn a new thing almost every day. If I don't then I am not doing my job correctly. Enough of my soapbox. Happy New Years to all.

P.S. Iwire, just ask Gary, Shawn, or Andy what kind of an AHJ I am. I can be very tough if I have to be. Most times I am very easy to get along with though.

Harold,

What? you don't think I did already?

I talked to Gary at the company kids Christmas party, he had nothing but good things to say about you.

Same with Sean when I saw him at our warehouse around Thanksgiving.

That was not a surprise.

Bob

Iwire,

You have a great bunch of guys that you work with. They were a pleasure doing business with them. They were always pleasent, friendly and they did all the work neatly and as per the NEC. (Is there any other way?) However that job up there is lousy, they are always in a rush, it is hard to find anyone who cares about the job. No one speaks English, unless they have to. Plus the workmanship stinks. I can't wait for that job to be done. There is about 8 buildings done with about 9 or 10 left to build. The whole project can take up to 10 years to complete. (yet they want it all done in 5 years.)

interesting how first maufacturing, next occupations of higher education, and now possibly even the service industry has succumbed to that giant sucking sound the Perotites where harping about eh?

should we say 'yo hablo el-codo' on big jobs here or hasta la vista ?

Harold I hope our part of the job was not lousy.(:

Gary is now doing "the same" job in a third location here in our home state.

I think he is using MC again, he thinks the job down your way went better with MC then the first one he did in this area with NM.

Sparky most of our guys speak english.

Hey everyone;

I really try not to write long replies, believe me I know they are wayyyyyy tooooo long most of the time, and readers get lost or bored ½ way through it!
Just get to typing, and next thing you know - it's a Mini Series reply!

I also know that no one here is saying "STOP THOSE DERN MESSAGES!!!"

Like others here, I get somewhat passionate when discussing certain things - which tends to result in Marathon Keyboarding.

Anyhow, back to the matter at hand: Frontal Nudity!
I am for it (Pro Naked-idity), as long as it's not me performing the task!


...ohhh, that's another thread!

Scott35

I am for it to as long is it not you either!

I've been in this trade for close to 20 yrs. For the first 13 of those, worked for several people who looked upon the code as something to be circumvented or ignored if possible.

For the next 3 I worked for an EC who lived and breathed the code and proper installation practices,and was impressed.

I have tried to follow that line of thinking,and trying to learn to do a better more code compliant job.

JMO,but it seems that there's 2 kinds of EC's and electricians,the ones that are in it because they love the trade and like being craftsmen,and make a decent living.

And those who are in it strictly for the money,to whom the code and good installation practices are merely a hindrance to the bottom line.

Russell

Sparky
I am glad that you come to this forum and vent. I believe that you would not if you did not care - so I can say you care.
It is not easy, in fact it is unsettling when you have to go to work everyday and wonder... I give you credit.
In the area where I live (1/2 an hour north of NYC), 4 years ago we had a license agreement passed. Prior to that almost anything went and competition was all over the place. Now after 20 long hard years and at times seemingly fruitless effort, we had the license agreement passed. Three years later the neighboring jurisdiction had theirs passed. There are still pockets of resistance including consumers, but it will always be so.
What I am driving at is it is a time issue, for most in certain areas, the time may be a lot longer.
Good Luck and happy new year!

Pierre

thank you Pierre

as it is said, every dog has his day

maybe even us rabid ones too eh?

~S~

Gentlemen:
I haven't been "here" as much as I would like to, time is scarce, etc.

Harold:
An interesting thread, and some interesting replies.

Yes, I remember Virgil, his plight, and his causes, and I remember how a few guys here helped him out, against his wishes. I'll say again, as I said to Virgil privatley, it's a damn shame what he went through.

Sparky, it's good that you stop by here and vent, and it's tough to play on an uneven field.

With my AHJ hat on, I do my job, fair and impartial, and I do not believe in the 'old boys club'. Thankfully, those days are gone, and hopefully they will not return. Yes, we have EC's who 'cut corners', and think it's a game. Again thankfully, the majority so it right the first time, and take pride in the work. I haven't heard the 20 year line for a few weeks, but 'the other guy lets me do it this way' pops up occasionally.

Harold, let me know if you have a 'quiet' day, to have lunch! Vacation coverage is done (I hope) so I'm back to 2 days as AHJ and have some time W/F if that works.
(908-803-0407 cell), Please no telemarketers guys.

John

Bob,

Your guys did great work. I compliment Shawn and Gary all the time. Again, there were several EC's on this job (Union and Non Union) and there was good guys and bad guys. I did not judge any EC's on union/non issue. As long as they did the job as per the NEC, I didn't have a problem. My biggest problem is with the NON electrical guys. The framers and tin knockers, and rockers, caused most of the problems. They managed to damage some of the electrical wires, boxes, etc.

John,

On Mon. Wed and Fri. I don't even get a lunch. I start work at 6:30 Am and stop at 5:00 PM. I do sit in the office between 7:00-7:30 AM on M-W-F and again between 8:30-9:00 am. If you like I could call you then or you can call me in that office. That is just one of my times. I have 4 different offices. This one in Montville I have the most freedom. My Peq. office, I get less time, since I only work 3 days a week in that town. E-mail me if you want and we can change Tel. # in order to get in touch.

Thanks for the info Harold.

I would like to make clear that the guys Harold spoke of are not "my guys", we are equals. I am not an owner just a Foreman.

Bob