I REST MY CASE!!!

See 110.3(B)

Makes perfect sense considering there is a likelihood the spring-loaded metal cover will rub up against the plug pins if someone were to pull the plug out without moving the cover out of the way first.

By the way, does the outlet really look like that? With the two t-slots?

I didn't know they still made those. You can stick a NEMA 1-15, 2-20, 5-15, 5-20, 6-15 or 6-20 in there.

Sven,

I don't think the cover could ever contact the pins on the plug. I think the sticker is more likely an FYI on which way the Receptacle is installed so people would not have to bend down and look under the cover.

Bill

Bill:

Yes, I agree, and that makes sense too! The cord cap is inserted and then twisted to make contact.

Ah shucks! I thought I had a winner!!

Joe, if you are implying 110.3(b), may I ask if this is listing or manufacturer's instructions?

Also, does the NEC address manufacturer's instructions like every other code in the world does, or just listing?

Ryan:

I believe that the answers to your questions would be Yes.

Here's a sample of the information and "instructions" I found when I searched for this type of equipment.

Joe I apologize if I am hijacking the topic here, but if what you say is true, consider the following:

There are several manufacturers of panelboards who include in their instructions to only install their brand of breakers in their panels. There are also some breakers that are listed to be used in their panels. Now I ask: Does a listed breaker installed in a panelboard, against the instructions of the manufacturer, comply with the code? Please include a reference for my learning. Thanks

Ryan

The information that is printed on many panelboards is a complete set of instructions, and specifications, and includes a specific warning that makes it clear that the use of other devices, not manufactured by "the companies name" will void any warranty, etc., etc.....

Joe, I'm certainly not saying that its a neat thing to do, but is it an enforcable violation?

IMO,if the breaker(s) of another manufacturer are UL listed for use in different brand panel(s), I don't see a violation of the NEC. The only issue would be the warranty from the manufacturer of the panel. I think that in most cases where a different brand breaker is added in existing panel, the warranty has long expired anyway.

Ryan:

Yes, I believe it is an enforceable violation and I would cite 110.3(B).

Follow the instructions that have been provided. If something happened that caused a fire or accident, the judge and jury would ask "why did you approve that job?"

Do you have some particular situation that you want to discuss?

...

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-24-2003).]

....

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-24-2003).]

Joe, no I don't really have a particular installation in mind, just a theoretical question.

BTW: I have cited this before :-P

......

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-24-2003).]

I would tell the judge and jury that the breaker that was used was manufactured for, and UL tested and approved for, use in that particular panel. Such as these manufactured by Cutler Hammer that are made for a SQ.D QO panel. http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/SA459.PDF

Here is a quote from another link..
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/66C1367.PDF

So I guess the issue is that the label needs to changed. Wouldn't the sticker that is affixed to the breaker serve the same purpose?

(Edited to remove a really long hyperlink)


[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 10-24-2003).]

I think we need to think about the intent of 110.3(B).
I do not believe the intent of 110.3(B) is to enforce any particular use of brand. However, if a panelboard has earned its listing with a particular brand and type of breaker, then I think that brand and type should be used.

Panelboards are probably tested with brand specific breakers, hence the warranty. To deviate from the tested brand would be wrong, but not a code violation. We have all seen multi-fit breakers and they have also earned a listing. I have to wonder if these multi-fit breakers were actually tested in every brand of panel that they will fit.

I think the intent of 110.3(B) is simple. Use listed equipment in the manner for which it was intended and follow any instructions for installation.

wireman,
There are breakers that have been tested and "classified" for use in panels made by other manufacturers. These classified breakers have been tested to the same standard as the UL "listed" breakers mase by the manufacturer of the panel. There is no code or safety violation in using classified breakers. These breakers are required to be supplied with a listing of panels that they are permitted to be used in.
Quote from UL Guide DIXF, "Circuit Breakers, Molded-case, Classified for Use in Specified Equipment".

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 10-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 10-25-2003).]

Thank you for the response resqcapt.

After re-evaluation I am wondering how we get around the code on this topic. If a listed panelboard requires a certain brand of breaker, then to use another brand might in fact be a violation of 110.3(B)

110.3(B) states that the installation and use of listed or labeled equipment shall be governed by the instructions of the listing or labeling.

So; how do we get around a listing or labeling requirement, by a manufacturer, that their panelboard, requires a particular brand of circuit breakers?

Not having a single or variety of panelboards in front of me to read the listing or labeling is a major disadvantage.

Interesting info in the UL guide.
I must admit I have never seen a copy of the guide you mention. I am thinking the classified term refers to the breakers being classified by amps, volts, size, type, and specified use, as it does in the NEC?

I am sure there are specs and testing criteria that all circuit breaker manufacturers must meet. To say an individual breaker has been designed according to certain specs and tested to meet certain criteria is not my question.

What I question, is whether these "multi-use" breakers are tested, at a testing facility, while they are installed in each of the individual panels that they are designed to fit in? Or are they tested as an idividual unit apart from the panelboard?

Sorry for jumping in the middle of this breaker discussion, but I found it very interesting.
What was the original topic with the picture of the recept. and 110.3(B) refering too? Or was this just a general discussion of 110.3(B)?

wireman,
There is no code violation using classified breakers per their classification. 110.3(B) only requires that you follow the instructions that are an actual part of the "listing and labeling". The "brand specific" rule for breakers is a "manufacturer's" instruction and not a "listing and labeling" instruction.
Classified breakers are tested in each panel that they are classified for use in.
Don

resqcapt
Thank you for clarification on this breaker issue as it pertains to 110.3(B)

Back to outlets ground up or down.



Leviton Clock outlet.

No personal choice here, ground down or the clock is on the floor.

Has anyone seen a clock that needed a grounding outlet?

Bob

Bob

When I got too old to be spanked, my parents would ground me.
That would have been a good time to see the clock grounded .

Pierre

No - can't say as I have iwire, but I believe all recept. are required to have the ground.

I was wondering if that was the point of the first post.

This will be argued until the end of time. I would say that since these are refered to as U-ground recept. that the ground by configuration terminology is intended to be down.

I always install with ground down. I think it looks best.

The monkey-wrench I like to throw in the argument is:
When installing horizontally - Should the ground be on the left or right?

Now everyone be sure and answer left...lol

I believe you can still get non-grounding outlets for use as replacements to existing outlets where no ground exists.

The opening post was to point out that grounds should always be installed up.

The company I work for has a ground or neutral up policy that I am happy to comply with, I just do not want to see a code rule for this.


U Ground is referring to the shape of the ground pin and slot.

Going by this the grounds should be up.

Look at the ground slot in the clock outlet above, the "U" is upside down.

You are 100% right it will be augured till the end of time.

My vote goes for personal choice by the customers paying us to do the work.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 10-29-2003).]

ouch...you got me there iwire...lol

I agree that customer preference is the key during installation. I also do not advocate a NEC ruling.

Looking at the subject from a cord end perspective, most appliances come with a cord that has a molded cap. The molded caps, that have the grounding prong, would not look or function very well with a ground-up installation.

Clock outlet?

I found this monstrosity mounted at +12" AFF in an office.
Iwire> "...or the clock is on the floor."
Well, there you go, this way, they can just lay the clock on the floor to begin with? ...S
BTW, 90° appliance cords are available with the ground pin mounted either direction.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 10-31-2003).]

Not to deviate from the first post, but what about dryer, and range plugs? My landlord has a 2 pole 3 wire plug, and the plug's ground is up. If the outlet is positioned with the ground down, then the plug will not hang down properly.

Regarding clock outlets:
You could use them where they are needed for other appliances. Sometimes you can't have the cord hanging down. I cant think of any examples now, but has anyone used one for any purpose besides clocks?

Electure- where's the hook?

edited because I didn't make my question clear.



[This message has been edited by sparked (edited 10-31-2003).]

Not wanting to deviate from the subject too much, but I notice in that last photo that the hot wire running to the outlet is blue.

Where 3-ph is run in conduits in a typical commercial building, it is usual to maintain phase identification in this way, even on single-phase 120V branch ciruits?

Sparked,

I have seen 'clock' outlets used behind a lighted hutch so that the furniture could go closer to the wall.

Bill

Paul,
Yes, we try to maintain the same coloring (colouring??) throughout.
This would be the CØ, for a 120V circuit.
Sparked,
The hook is the 6-32 screw (that sticks out at the bottom) in this pic.
Honest, I didn't flip the image...S


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 11-01-2003).]

Just wondered -- Thanks. In Britain a single-phase final branch circuit always has a red hot wire, no matter which phase it's derived from.

Yep, that would be accepted standard spelling here.

Uh, folks, I hate to spoil everyone’s fun here but I’m almost certain Joe’s original picture is of an NEC Class 1 Division 1 receptacle that takes a special cord cap to use. The point of the proprietary cord cap is that the served utilization equipment can also be used in an ordinary location—id est, inserted into a plain-vanilla NEMA 5-20 or 6-20 receptacle. {Ground-pin-location arguments by others...not me.}

See: www.crouse-hinds.com/CrouseHinds/pdf/2p-7grp.pdf

    




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 11-02-2003).]

My favorite Chinese restaurant (looks like an old dingy diner) in Midtown (near Pennsylvania Station) has these pictures with little lights clamped on top of the frame.

Behind the canvases are clock receptacles so that the lamps can be neatly plugged in without having the plug bulge out into the frame.

The clock receptacles have to beREALLY OLD though. They are two-pin sockets!!

I've always seen the three-pin versions in existing buildings where the old electric clocks have been removed.

Not much use nowadays, considering that a lot of "office clocks" are now those cheap battery types you get from the discount/variety stores. Then just use the hook in the wall palte to hang the battery clock.

Bjarney,

Yeah it's a type that has latches on the HOUSING that latch into the flange around the socket when you stick it in and twist the metal housing a bit. It's kind of an interlock.

The twisting action powers the outlet on and off.

They're used in industrial environments. Explosion proof or something. Helps prevent sparks I guess?

Joe sent me a picture of two these animals plugged into a standard receptacle but I can't find it. Appleton makes them.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 11-04-2003).]

Sven,

You sent it to me. I sent you back url to post it but maybe you didn't get my email?

Anyway, here it is: