I have used one of these

to protect a 3 phase motor, the gfi trips out the contactor's coil....

is it viable ?

~Steve

I doubt that you could call this "personal" protection like that offered by a UL Class A GFCI. Note that the Leviton web page lists specific contactors that have been tested.

The UL testing for GFCI devices includes a time element. Exceptfor the listed devices, it is unlikely that your contactor contacts will break the arc and open the circuit fast enough to classify as Class A. But any protection is better than no protection.



[This message has been edited by JBD (edited 07-14-2003).]

Offhand, 5mA leakage/trip on a motor will probably send someone to the looney bin.

exactly my assumption...

the unit shown comes in a 'spa unit' with it's own contactor, the only alteration i've done was to stuff a third conductor thru the GFI.

it appears to be quite functional, listings aside, why is this frowned on?

what would make it inapplicable to 3 phase?

Sparky, the intent was not to imply 5mA protection is not permitted for such a load, but that after some aging, motors with enameled wire pounded into fishpaper-lined stator slots may produce excessive trips/leakage that could become frustrating to users/maintainers of the motor. {For this application, 208Y serving a GFCI-protected motor may be less problematic than 240∆.}

I'm really confused. Where does the contactor come in?

hmmm,
i understand the 'leakage' part, i guess i've lucked out so far....

C-H,
the contactor is fed by a 3ph branch that goes thru the high-umph gfi's ct.

the coil is for the motor

the load side of the gfi would drop out the coil

that is, if i'm not simply chasing my tail here, fooling myself that it will function???

Ya' know, I'd like it better if they clearly stated that it was intended to be applied to a 3 phase load somewaht more clearly than: quote"Adds ground fault protection to heavy equipment powered through 3- or 4-wire circuits". Because if you go to look at the wiring diagrams, http://www.leviton.com/sections/prodinfo/newprod/npleadin.htm, you will see that they only list : 30 Amp GFCI Wiring Diagram 3 - 2 Phase Circuits (120/240V Relay, 3-Pole),beyond which the pther diagrams call out 120, 208/240, or 120/140 volt circuits. I believe that they also erroneously call it "2 phase". The part of the heading on the web page that calls out Only for 3- and 4-Wire Systems That Include Grounded Neutral, and also depicts it in the wiring diagram, would lead me to believe that it is not listed for your installation since a 3 phase motor does not employ the system neutral. Additionally, where would you obtain the 120v control circuit from.

The current donought would appear to be a zero equence type so while it might work in theory, it probably wouldnt be listed.

As an aside, last year or so, I tried to buy one of the Leviton spa packs that you mentioned, and that do exist in the catalog. I was told by Leviton that if I wanted to purchase a large quantity of them, they would build them, but they didn't notmallr do a onesy or twosey sale. So I complained to the Leviton salesman, and he GAVE me the sample he had in his trunk. It works well.

[This message has been edited by US Coreman (edited 07-15-2003).]

US Coreman,
why can't the gfi unit's 110v can simply be part of the 110v control circuit?

i do wish for clarity here also, because CMP-20's stance on pool gfi protection would seem to revolve around this very issue

listed or no, it is (as far as i can tell) funtional at this time

that is, unless there is something i've blatantly missed.

which is my inquiry here.......

I don't understand why you would want or need to GFCI protect the control circuit?
Is that suppose to GFCI protect the motor?
Like US Coreman, I do not believe this to be listed for the application you are using it for.

Pierre

Yes, the 120VAC could originate from the control transformer, if one exists. You never indicated that, so I did not make any assumptions. Yes you could insert it into the control string in the proper place.

I am unfamiliar or at least at this time, not up to snuff on the CMP-20 opinion. I will endeavor to look into that soon. Since you are speaking to pools & article 680, again, you did not mention that in your original or subsequent post so I was thinking in general terms like 3 phase motors applied outdoors or in situations like car washes or industrial processes.

The Leviton device IS a less costly device; and given the lack of listing for 3 phase applications, and then permutating it to a municipal or commercial type pool would seem to be for a reason. Perhaps the electronic circuitry is not set up to handle the 3 phase condition; I just don't know. So, when I don't know, I have to defer to the side of caution until I am sure.

Kinda of a chicken crap answer, but one I can live with if I were in your shoes. I did a quick search on the web, and came up with this link: http://www.zymico.com/gfi.shtml I see that this person does indeed do what you are asking, and claims, I believe, erroneously so, that it is LISTED for 3 phase. I believe that this individual is a home brewer AND an electrician, but has mis-applied the device. Nonetheless, it still works, I guess. What I was searching for was a device LISTED for your application to cite as a listed alternative, albeit, I'm sure, more expensive. I'll keep looking, but check with Leviton abut this directly; perhaps I'm wrong, and you'll get the answer from the horse's mouth.

[This message has been edited by US Coreman (edited 07-16-2003).]

Sparky,
now I understand. I just didn't think enough out of the box to grasp that the GFI just contained the "donut" and control circuit. Cool thing!

the 2005 ROP pg 63, 17-82, log #148 discusses 680.22(a)(5) which allows for hardwired pools, non-gfi

i could never understand why, and there are those who say that the best way to gain clarity is to write an ROP

a YASENCHAK claims 3 ph protection is null and void (it is as far as 680.22 stands) , somewhat confusing to read here....

they would seem to be accusing the 2002 process of dropping the ball

the pdf file has headers before and after the rop, can anyone here tell me which applies to the rop? the one before, or after it?

anyhow, the spa unit sold to me has the very same high umph GFI unit as in your link US Coreman

the contactor that is included is a 3 pole

if in fact, i've violated the listing by introducing a third wire ,not much of a feat really..... i can live with that as long as the protection i'm trying to provide is for real......

C-H
i had to see if it could be done

it appears to work, as well as it does for the brewer/'lectricain in US Coreman's link
(at least i've someone else on line to share the chickencrap if it starts to fly eh?)



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-16-2003).]

The Leviton website lists several 50A 3-phase contactors which are UL Listed. As long as you are using one of these specific devices you should have no problem and minimal concerns.

same animal JBD,
the bigger Q is why cmp-20 would choose to pass this over?