I don't like CMP1's proposed definition of kitchen 1-114: "An area used, or intended to be used, for the preperation of food." Sounds like this would include every employee break room we design since they all have a refrigerator and a microwave (no stove or range though). Then every outlet in the break room would have to be a GFCI. I don't like to make the one behind the refrigerator GFCI since it can't be easily tested or reset. (Not to mention what happens to the food in it if the GFCI trips).

Food easily replaced, people not so easy to replace.

I would not want to be on the receiving end of a shock that could have been prevented if the freshness of someone's baloney sandwich was not deemed more important then the safety of personnel.

As for cost, the more equipment we install the more we make, as long as all contractors are bidding per code you will still make money and win jobs.

Gentlemen:
The refrigerator receptacle is a "dedicated appliance location", and does not require GFI protection, correct??

If the change referenced above is adopted, then a single receptacle, only for the 'fridge would not require GFI protection, correct?

A freezer, refrig, sump pump etc, should not be on a GFI protected outlet/circuit.
John

John the present requirement for dwelling units is for outlets that serve counter top outlets, so an outlet behind the fridge does not need a GFCI as you say.

But again I do not agree that the possible loss of food rates higher than the protection of personnel.

As an example 210.8(B)3 (new for 2002) requires all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt outlets in non-dwelling unit kitchens to have GFCI protection.

This includes all equipment and I have heard that there have been problems of tripping, and this may mean some food spoils, throw it out and replace it.

IMO this is a problem with the equipment and not the use of GFCIs and the equipment makers will have to do better.

Given some time these problems will get worked out and we will have safer installations as a result.

Bob

Bob,

Not trying to downplay the safety angle, but the same could be said for any appliance or piece of equipment but we don't go putting GFCI protection on our Dishwashers, Ovens, Furnaces, etc. that exist in the same type of situations as the Refrigerator/Freezer does.

I'd like to see more attention paid to getting GFCI protection in other areas like outside (regardless of occupancy type) or near sinks in classrooms.

Bill

Bill I agree with you that there are many more areas that should require GFCIs.

I recently did a daycare facility and was surprised to find no requirement for GFCIs at the numerous sinks for diaper changing areas.

The baby could very well be undressed on a wet counter with their feet in a stainless sink and reach receptacles that did not have to be GFCI.

We tried to have the engineer delete them as we could not see a purpose for the outlets but we failed at that, we did use GFCIs here by choice.

As for the refrigerators, and this is just my opinion for what it worth.

In a dwelling and if truly a grounded outlet I do not see much to be gained by a using GFCI.

But if it is an old house with a two wire feed to the fridge I would think that using a GFCI here would increase the level of safety in a meaningful way, with no equipment ground at the refrigerator there should be no false tripping.

In commercial kitchens having seen the beating the cords of the equipment take, often ripped and torn at the connectors from moving the equipment daily for cleaning chores and also taking into account the equipment is often sitting on grounded metal counters but isloated on rubber or plastic feet I think GFCIs will be a great addition to safety.

Sorry for the long rant, Bob

Bob,

You do raise some good points. I can see more need for a GFCI in your 2 wire Resi example than on a commercial Kitcken refrigerator though, but that area may be subject to more abuse.

So, maybe the fence is a good spot to be on this issue.

BTW,
I wouldn't call that a long rant!


Bill

Bob,
Use of a refrigerator in a dwelling unit on a two wire circuit is a violation of 250.114(3)(a). There is no execption that permits a two wire GFCI protected circuit to serve the refrigerator.
Don

So all homes must be retrofit and brought up to code to prevent having a fridge on a two wire circuit?

There is many OLD 2W refrigerators still in service.

Is there a law to junk them ?

rat4spd - Yes

Gwz - NO

Modern refrigerators have 3 prong (grounded) plugs. 250.114(3)(a) requires these appliances to be grounded. Installing a GFCI receptacle to replace the 2-wire receptacle feeding this appliance would be a violation if no equipment ground is present. An equipment ground wire or a new circuit should be run to this receptacle.

Curt

now that do rasie my consering about commercal units in kitchens yeah bob i can understand that point using the gfci's it do help alot and i work in few commercal kitchen also we have to run gfci's but not for fridges if they are hard wired type but i feel i am in bind for hard wires appliances in commercal locations but for cord attchments applince yeah yeah that make sense but a catch what if electric range have top burner going full tilt and the water in pot decied to boil over like crazy and get the burner pot filled with water and have increased pontial chance to get shocked what ever the voltage at the burner connetion is at ( one stove i work on is 480 volts ) but i wish there is a way for ground falut inturpper set up for hevey commercal applicnes but for home appactions like friges i know most have 3 wires but i see quite few old one still run on 2 wires but alot of them are phasing out now hey don thanks for pointing it out on 250.114 for 2 wires. ( sorry for short delay i have to translated for myself) also don there is anything related to the nec for hard wired applinces required to use gfci for commercal area ???


merci marc

As usual a terribly vague definition. I know there were a bunch of submittals for this one and they are going with this? Typical NEC fasion. I just made some sandwiches for the kids on my dining room table. This area was used to prepare food. GFCI is now required. I just popped some popcorn in the little microwave down in the family room. Food was prepared in this area. GFCI now required. How about adding a few more words to make it clear such as "permanantly installed cooking appliance" or "where a sink is installed". You could also have a requirement under the other than dwelling unit requirements that specifically states the requirements for a break room.

Don,


Are you talking about the cord or the circuit feeding it?

406.3(D) would seem to allow the use of a GFCI for replacement of a device on a two wire circuit and it does not say except for refrigerators.

If all the items in 250.114 are not allowed to be plugged into an outlet installed as allowed by 406.3(D), that would make 406.3(D) useless, as how would I know where someone might plug in any of those items listed in 250.114?

I am confused.

Bob

Bob -
Yes, section 406.3(D) does permit the use of a GFCI for replacement of a device on a 2-wire circuit.

However - there is a caveat - you must mark the GFCI & any other down-line receptacles "No Equipment Ground"....this is fine for those devices/appliances that do not DEMAND a grounded circuit.

Section 250.114 gives a list of equipment that MUST be grounded...in other words, this equipment must be on a Grounded Circuit (just because you have a 3-prong ungrounded receptacle on a GFCI does not make it grounded)...so, in these instances (i.e. 250.114), you cannot get away with using the ungrounded GFCI to provide you with a 3-prong ungrounded receptacle.

I hope I didn't make that more confusing.

dana1028

No not more confusing, thank you.

I do understand that the GFCI does not create a ground.

However I find it unlikely that the average homeowner will understand the label and not plug in a one of the things on the list.

It was my understanding that allowing the GFCI replacement was to protect the user from faults to the case of what ever they plug in, 3 wire cord or not the GFCI will trip if any power does not return even with out a ground.

If I can not plug any three wire devices into this GFCI what is the point of changing out the 2 wire outlet?

As they will not allow you to replace a non-grounding outlet with a standard grounding type and label that no equipment ground, this leads me to believe they intend 3 wire plugs to be used in the GFCI outlets.

Still confused, Bob

Too bad Martha Stewart, the ultimate kitchen queen, is unavaiable for comment....

I"m not suggesting anyone violate 250.114.

But would installing a gfci recep for a refrige or window ac unit in the case of an older home with 2 wire romex not be better than the "adapters" I usually see?

I find these 2 to 3 wire adapters in older homes all the time. Refridge's and ac units are routinely plugged in to them.

In the case of elderly folks on a fixed income,faced with a major expense,(for them) would some protection not be better than none from a practical standpoint?

Russell

Doing what is best for the customer is something the NEC will never grasp Russell

We EC's toss that coin every day don't we?

Meanwhile, have you ever seen this disclaimer on any adapters.....


Is there a batterymarch park response to all those being sold (other than rewire your entire home) ??

Have i overlooked a CSPC public notice?

~S

Bob - gotcha - you're confused because 406.3(D) tells you how you can create an ungrounded 3-prong receptacle....and 250.114 says you can't use it for anything you'd ever want to use it for.

Here's the salvation - 250.114 starts out with an Exception:

"Listed tools...shall not be required to be grounded where protected by a system of double insulation or its equivalent."

FYI - virtually any tool/piece of equipment you'd ever want to plug into your ungrounded 3-prong plug [406.3D] falls into this category. ...this includes your refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners, blah, blah, blah.

The purpose of 250.114 is to prevent the UNLISTED, Non-dbl. insulated equipment from being used on an ungrounded 3-prong receptacle system.

250.114 creates an appliance 'performance' criteria so mfr's. do not make unlisted equipment. The only way the equipment discussed in 250.114 is going to get listed is to be double insulated....

So...you are in fact allowed to create your 406.3(D) receptacle outlets and they can be used by virtually any modern equipment.

Now - where did I get my information? I took a college code class - the instructor said so. UL reps also took the class and concurred with what he said.

God, I hope I didn't put my foot in my mouth.

[This message has been edited by dana1028 (edited 06-01-2003).]

dana1028

Thanks you have the same opinion I do as far as 250.114, I only hope we are right.


Very well stated, yes that is exactly what I am having a hard time with, it makes no sense.

And as sparky pointed out, the average homeowner has no knowledge of this info and is not likely to spend $50 to buy the code book to know it.

If they did know it would that stop them?

I would think that 250.114 is there to require those items to have grounded cords, but they still could be plugged into outlets installed under 406.3(D).

IMO If this is not what the NEC intends, the NEC should not allows us to install 3 wire outlets on 2 wire feeds.

A label that says "no equipment ground" will do absolutely nothing, if the plug fits the outlet and the appliance operates the average person will use it.

Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 06-02-2003).]

I've installed GFI's as a 'quick fix' many times in similar situations.

1/2 of Vermont's residences still operate on two wire systems and probably will continue to do so into the next millenium
(we're big on that backwoods image)


The hardware stores are always full of adapters....

This is yet another example of convienence aparently vetoing safety

It is also an example of the trenches being (once again) the ambassadors of safety while the many orginizations dedicated seem moot.

It galls me that so many similar entities focus on minutia while not confronting more obvious hazards

we could probably beat this around ad naseum here, only to equate to the multitudes of trademen howling in the wilderness rop after rop cycle.

perhaps the best approach is to forward the body count to these guys via this site's help with a petition from here ?

so.....(unless this has all been said and done?) what say the safety guru's of this BB chime in and help us word it



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 06-02-2003).]

Dana,
I've never seen a double insulated refrigerator, freezer, or air conditioner. If it has a 3 wire cord it is not double insulated.
Don

I believe that they were refering to the "or equivalent" portion of the phrase. Is not GFCI protection accepted as an equivalent level? I have no problem with this except the worry that I would have if I connected my computer equipment up on the GFCI protected 2-prong non-grounded system. Besides the worry of an unwanted trip, the static shock possibily destroying a chip would make this undesirable for computer type equipment, but, it would not be a safety hazard unless you were prone to throwing non-functional equipment at things.

Shane

In my opinion a GFCI is in no way equivalant to insulation.
Don

well, so much for my 'foot-in-mouth' disease.

Bob,
It's the code, who told you that it is supposed to make sense???
Don

Possibly the appliance manufacturers would not use such crummy capacitors...it's their leakage to ground IMO that causes the nuisance tripping.
A system should be free of this kind of junk.
Do it right, or don't do it at all...S

I think congress should enact legislation to require every single residence in the USA to be re-wired and brought up to what an independently appointed team of psychics forecast that current code will be when electricity is not inherently dangerous. Any person not in compliance shall be deported to live in the midde of central South America (or Korea, take your pick) in perpetuity. Obviously any home not wired tommorrow is a saftey hazard.

[This message has been edited by rat4spd (edited 06-02-2003).]

LOL

I was just getting over the fact life is not fair, now you tell me this.

Bob

rat4spd

adapters a terrorist plot?

wouldn't put it past Ashcroft.....

Sparky, thankyou for seeing the humor in my sarcasm.

There is a real danger of food poisoning, which is why refrigerators are not usually GFCI protected:
from WSU http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1490/eb1490.html

Why not GFCI protect every circuit?

Far too European a concept kale....