These pix are of the house next door to the one I'm working on currently.

Enjoy!

More of same:

This could be any house in my neck of the woods. Imagine if you can, bidding against this #$%^&*.

What is a 2 wire traveler?

Must have been out of staples that day.

These boxes aren't full there's still holes left.

Flush mounting the boxes is a nice idea to help the sheetrocker.

He isolated the meter from the panel so as not to create a parallel path.

Any idea what the 4"rd metal box is for, will it accessible?

I have always worked for someone, how do you guys bid against this?

The sad part is that this "laborer" was taught by an "electrician" how to install romex the least expensive way. We call 'em "tennis shoe runners" here up north. They usually exist just outside of city limits where the "developers" got a good deal on some land knowing that they could make a considerable profit because of the lack of "AHJ" of any expertise. There is a $10 per hour wage difference between residential electricians and commercial ones here within city limits. Imagine the pay scale of the "laborers" that installed this mess.
Wonder how many cut themselves with the utility knives! How many drilled holes big enough for several romex wires and at the same time weakened the structure. How many light boxes were installed instead of fan boxes. How many switches will be crushed into those overfilled boxes.

I know there are times that we electricians complain that we see no logic in some code requirements but, I would rather have that annoyance than have "laborers" claiming to be electricians.

Dave

[This message has been edited by WebSparky (edited 03-16-2003).]

What is the nipple in the wall between meter and panel?



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-16-2003).]

Quote from the general contractor:

"I'm licensed to pull wahr, but I caint make up the connections. Will you terminate the wahrs for me?"

Hmmmmmmmmm

(More response from your comments later...)

iwire,that nipple is 2 pvc TA's back to back. Websparky,I see this all the time here done by "licensed" EC's. As for bidding against this,I'll let Virgil respond to that.I can't post pictures, but I could get some doozies. I could have taken a roll of film in a house I was in last week,that we plumbed,but got lowballed on the electrical. Russell

"Neat and workmanlike" ?? No yellow Romex over here, but other than the color the mass of cables just draped through the roof timbers is all too familiar.

Looks like there are some cables in the boxes that will leave less than 6" of wire to work with too.

At first I was somewhat amused. The more I look at this I am just pissed off. Some a-hole builder will sell this house to some unsuspecting person who will live there with their family. This is just wrong. I am VERY angry. Are there no inspections or legal avenues that can be taken here?

Aside from the fact that it appears that somebody got into a fight with a spool of cable, how exactly are the cables to be brought into the breaker panel? There is not enough space to bring all of them in via the top, and the sides and bottom are framed in.

Also, there is no protection for the cables pulled through the holes that are close to the edges of the lumber.

My non-electrician's opinion: These photos speak loudly of "I DON'T CARE!"

Codes to the left of me, DYIer's to the right, here i am...

Stuck in the middle with you......


did someone say 2-wire travelers?
fodder for good chat indeed....

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 03-16-2003).]

Virgil:
First off; how the hell are you?????
Haven't heard much from ya in a while....

Now, I have to say my friend that you have a problem with "competition".

Based on the quality of the work that you do, from the pics that I have seen posted..
how can a butcher get away with the sxxx work in this post?????

How can a "builder" let this happen, when there is a "real tradesman" right next door?
Are there absolutley no reule and regulations in your neck of the woods, even for a new house??? It may be time to call in a possee. (spelled right???)

John

posse

Courtesy of this free program called WordWeb.

I love this thing. Used it for over a year now......

Really helps me to spell correctly.
http://wordweb.info/free/

Sparky, You'd be closer to use the real words to that song.

what a sh** job.
i like the wiring/recps in the heating duct and the 4 inch round box in the rafter too.

pauluk. the new romex is now color coded. yellow is # 12

sparky66vw:

sorry to say this but that is very poor workmanship on the photo i can see it and what more that on the meter box did someone took out too many ko's ring out look little too big useing 2 1/2 hole for 2 inch ta that is shroddy and 2 wire trallver that give me a headache. and what the heck is the 4 inch octgaol box above the 2x4 and wire sticking down straght ??? and using 4 inch boxes for celeing light ??? humm i rather use the celeing fan box for all the celeing appactions to advoid probems and why not staple all the wires to 2x4 or whatever to keep the wires neat insted leaving loose allover the place and i look at the breaker box it look pretty tight there and will have little probem to get all the wires in the wall cavity i am suprised the workmanship.
all i have to say " c'est un désordre"
it mean it is a mess in french

merci marc

sorry to say this

marc,

It's not my work, lol...

No apology needed...



This is an example of my work...



The following diagram is the best I can figure out of how he wires his three ways... The connections themselves are still a mystery to me...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-17-2003).]

ok i appect it sparky66vw;

but i guess you feel little disgusted about this work manship i figure you see that few time before i went thru the same thing one of gc do the same thing and i have to clean up thier mess and i genreall warn gc that if any electral stuff is not up to code i will try to warn them or charge extra for it (i do that often) hé hé hé anyway almost the same idéa what the handypeoples try to it themself and cut corner with it


merci marc

Here's how I fear he would terminate it:





Boy!, What I would give to have Joe T. come to Greenbrier County and clean house!!!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-17-2003).]

lol yeah that true why not get joe t there and he will raise roit act to that person whom did the mess you can tell that person who did it better move the butt fast before someone will start swearing no matter what langunge it will come put it will be the same thing hé hé anyway merci for the pic and display about the 2 wire trallvérs grrrrrrrrr that is very dangeous stuff and my responde to the 2 wire trallver is C'EST UN DESORDE !!!! ZUT (damm) but i did ran that mess before it drive me nuts
merci marc

What if he uses 2 pieces of romex for his travelers, which leaves a spare? You may not be able to see the other label
Does this guy know you are taking pictures of his work?. I'd be POed unless permission was granted.

[This message has been edited by walrus (edited 03-17-2003).]

Thanks for the pix Virgil

It is a mess, yet a very common mess, one i'm more than familiar with.

Guess i gotta look up 300.20 on that 3w !


As a contractor , there is simply a definitive line bettween what 'they did' and what 'i do' that i point out billing wise when i walk onto these sort of jobs.

You see i blame both sides, those that produce ivory tower laws without enforcement are just as bad as those that ignore them.

I've seen no crusade to curtail any of these installations, as a matter of fact, i see them more frequently now that 15 yrs ago due to the BV & HD mentality.

Many contractors have no choice but to become complacent here, the powers that be advocate this sort of thing by thier silence.

Screw them all i say, my kids gotta eat.

walrus,

300.3(B) all conductors of the same circuit and the grounded conductor where used shall be in the same raceway or cable.

walrus:

Nope, didn' seek permission, and let him be pissed. Ya wanna see pissed? I'm pissed because this guy drives a 2003 Ford F-350 and I drive a 1985 Nissan "Hardbody" that will not pass inspection and must be somehow replaced next month.

My net for last year? <$12K.
He spent more than that on his truck!

This guy has not spent $40 on a copy of the NEC. This guy has not spent $250 on torquing tools, this guy has not spent an hour or two every evening on ECN. This guy is not even an electrician!

Thank you very much.

Besides, this is a message to all:

Everyone has permission to take pictures of MY work. Please, feel free, all of my work is something I am proud of... If you would be POed to have pictures taken of your work, then perhaps your work is substandard and you should consider another career option. It seems that if one would be embarrassed to show the world an example of their work, then that speaks volumes of the quality of said work, don'cha think?

That is all.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-17-2003).]

Staples! Are cable staples that expensive? NO!

Question, what is that yellow-jacket cable normally used for? Standard ROMEX is white and grey is used for underground feed, correct?

Virgil, why won't a truck from 1985 pass the fumes test? Is rebuilding the engine even an option?

iwire,
What about 300.3(B)(3)?
Don

SvenNYC

as i said in the above post.new romex is now color coded.
white is #14.
yellow is #12.
orange is #10.
not sure on #8 or #6

Sven, I do not work with much NMC but the new stuff is yellow for 12/2 and I have seen orenge but do not know the size.

I do use a lot of MC and that is starting to come with color codes, check out this site and you will find The "Rainbow ID system"
http://www.afcweb.com/

Yes, you are right Don, judging from the skill level shown in the pictures I am sure this gentleman knows how to apply 300.20(B).

Do you run 2 - 2 wire NMCs for travlers?

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-17-2003).]

Bob,
I've never worked a "rope" job as we don't do residential work.
Don

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a MLO panel back to back with a meter base? Where's the main disconnect?

66,

I have always beleived to learn from past mistakes. This is a perfect place to bring Jimmy into and say DON'T DO THIS!!!

BTW, how is Jimmy?
Scott

Hey check it out, the bold thingy worked.

[This message has been edited by Scotts (edited 03-17-2003).]

If I may be a bit provocative: Is there really a danger in just draping the cable like that? Provided that it is properly supported before each box and panel and it isn't bundled. Is there an electrical danger with the wiring looking like s**t?

(I'm not saying the wiring pictured is acceptable: there are dangers like the lack of support before boxes and the overfill of the box etc. etc.)

I just saw something else: There is no steel to protect the cables going through the studs? Is that another cheat or is it not required? (Studs are used to fasten things, thus people are likely to drill and drive nails in them.)

Sparky66
Geez, make a comment and get slammed for it.
If that guy is willing to cheat to make a buck so be it. Its your decision not to. Frankly you made the right choice. Some folks can sleep at night doing shoddy work some can't. Thats the way it is.

As far as my picture comment goes, don't you think its just plain common courtesy to ask permission. that's all. If I knew someone was using pictures of my work without permission I'd be POed. It has nothing to do with workmanship or lack there of.
Sorry if I offended you, I apoligize .

Oh yeah one more thing, I don't drive a new truck either


[This message has been edited by walrus (edited 03-17-2003).]

iwire
Good point on 300.3.b but I never said it was right or wrong just that the guy could do a 3 way with 3 wires using 2 pieces of Romex. Personally I would use 14/3 but I've never done a house in my life except my own.

I think I remember there is a way to do a 3 way with 2 wires that was commonplace years ago, not code now?

I think the old 3 way method switched the neutral.

Don is correct you could do this with 2 NMCs if you follow 300.20(B) to do it, although it would be unusual.

But looking at the nice drawings it seems that there is only one 2 wire between switches.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 03-17-2003).]

View this as your competition fellas, then your in the shoes of the rural romex jockey.

Virgil:
It's a pretty sorry state that things are in now, that people seem to be most concerned about QUANTITY, not QUALITY. I certainly would not want my family living in a home with this kind of shoddy workmanship hidden away.

BTW: (on seeing the link to the old building service you did) How did this job eventually turn out? Any pix?

I hope you will be able to get a couple of pix of the breaker panel after the wiring is in. It should be interesting to see how he "gets five gallons of water into a three gallon bucket".

Mike (mamills)

A job that I mentioned in an earlier post that We got lowballed on,the guy jumped out of the closest recep (12-2) with 14-2 to the light switches and proceeded with 14-2 to the light(s).All the light feeds were tapped like this,with 20a breakers. A 400a service was built with 4/0 al. se cable going 40 ft. inside the house with no discos to 2 200a mb panels.No connectors for entrance cable at the panels,just a pvc ta.In the basement,all the romex was stapled to the bottom of the joists,and run in spiderweb fasion to wherever. We lost the electrical by $600.00.As sparky said welcome to the world of the rural romex jockey. Oh,this guy holds a non-restricted Ga.license (Grandfathered in in 1982). Russell

I guess we can look at service calls as the bright side here eh Russell?

ga.sparky56, yes, as in your area, this is pretty much normal, even for some of the EC's. I have, as an advertisment gimmick to set me apart from the rest, the follwoing on my business cards and the signs on my truck:

100% NEC Compliant Electrical Work

If any of them gain enough knowledge to actually argue that claim, then I have achieved my goal.

HotLine1, doing pretty well, John, thanks for asking... My free time has been used for learning IFR in Multiplayer Flight Sims. Loads of fun, and great challenge.
Nope, no rules or regs at all except for the service end of things...

walrus, I wish to deeply apologize, even though I stand by my opinion, my delivery needs lots of work and I'm sorry my diplomacy went out the window. I should thank Bill for not banning me! You are right in that I should ask for permission, but that takes all the fun out of it, and I'm sure the answer would be no. I have learned that in some situations, it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. However, I am sorry, and I was wrong.

Sven, the truck's motor is in great shape, what it needs is a new truck around it...

If WV actually had emmissions tests, I think it would pass... however, the WVDOT has Motor Vehicle Inspections, which includes the condition of the body, tires, windshield, lights, etc. The body alone would total it. It truly is unsafe for the road. So much so, I've borrowed an F-150 from a friend of mine to keep me going until I can buy a truck, hopefully next month sometime. Boy, what a sweet truck, and gets about the same mileage as my Nissan!

Mamills, the bank job stopped at a few temp recepts for construction and that was it... I don't think the owner is in much of a hurry.

iwire and Don, how would one correctly wire this with 2 12-2 travellers?

Everyone, thanks for the comments.

Yup sparky! Service calls. "You said how much just to show up?" I'm leaning toward specializing in remodels, and digging with my trusty little Takeuchi,it seems to have paid most of the bills the last 2 months. Virgil, thats a good idea on the advertising.Maybe I'll enlighten some on the existence of the NEC. Russell

sparky66vw ; yeah i can see what you mean about it and i ran the same situation and what most peoples do concat me with spread the word after see my workmanship as far for my truck i have the same one for over 10 years (1989 F-250 4X4 diesel with over 560,000 miles with orgineal engine ) i just done chating with my freind ( he is a electrican also ) and he fill me in about 2 wire travlier and it is the excat way you desribe it on the photo and most sparky in my area try to advoid 2 wires trallver now .

also when i genrally get done with my work i try to take the photo with me with before and after job is done so i can show how much progess it is done


merci marc

Interesting development:

Seems he is anxious about passing the service inspection, and our conversation went from asking-of-advice to giving-me-his-future-work... Guess he just wants to avoid the headaches... Jimmy and I fixed his Service so it'll pass code and he wants me to trim the house out too (hoo boy )...

It's T&M, what the heck... and he's been giving me all of his electrical supplies saying "won't be needin' these anymore"
so I think this is more than just carrot dangling.

I guess some stories do have happy endings.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-18-2003).]

I'm tickled for you Virgil. Glad somebody's forecast is looking up. Need any cheap help?

Sounds something like "good things come to those who ....."
Virgil, I'm glad that things are lookin up for ya......
It's got to get better.....every day is a new experience.

Take care my friend...
John

Vigil. I will be devils advocate here. From your posts in the past I would have thought you'd learned not to take over someone else's disaster. I hope this one goes better.

Well, long story, but it's about the only work I got right now...

Make the most of it Virgil

Well you gota do what you gota do. I've been there.

Just a postscript:

Virgil, Don't worry about needing to beg forgiveness for posting these pictures. You never mentioned your new customers name or the address of where this "learning opportunity for Jimmy" is located.

For all we know, you could have Photoshopped them....(wink,wink)

Our best to Jimmy,
Steve

"Some days your the windshield, and some days your the bug!"

Or...Some days your the dog,Some days your the fire hydrant!

Hang in there 66 !!!