This topic has been discussed before, but couldn't find the thread. Also wanted to get more opinions.

Question: What is the Code Compliant way of color coding the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) at the Main Service, where it lands at the Grounded Conductor's bus?

References to NEC and CEC would be appreciated.

I ask this, due to a couple people finding several various quoted colors in several different areas.

One was to tag it White, another was to tag it Green, the other was to not tag it and make it bare, and the other was to make sure it was any other color than White or Green.

I'll reply after a few opinions are in.

Scott35 S.E.T.

Scott35:

Dan Leaf, a person retired from the inspection community for many years, sends in many student generated proposals, and most of them get acccepted, except for one that I can recall.

His 310-12 proposal was to identify the GEC with "green marking" and Code Panel 5 rejected it, and their reason was that the GEC can be any color you want except white, gray, or green.

They also said that if the installer didn't know what it was, that they had no business being in the enclosure.

I think that the proposal goes back to the 1996 cycle?

I see that many do still use green, but green is the color to be used for the EGC, and an electrical inspector has the right to reject that color when used to identify a GEC.

As Joe said no color marking is neccesary. This one seems to offer some confusion. I have worked with electricians who have insisted it must be marked green. I have had an inspector demand that I mark the entire run of insulated # 4 thhn with green tape every foot. His reasoning was that someone could confuse this wire with coax catv wire. Perhaps the solution is just use bare wire.

This is out of the 2000 Chicago code.

18-27-250.64. Grounding Electrode Conductor Installations.
Grounding electrode conductors shall be installed as specified in (a) through (e) of this section.

Raceways for grounding electrode conductors shall not contain other conductors. The outer finish of an insulated grounding
electrode conductor need not be identified except that it shall not be white or green. Flexible conduit and armored cable shall be
permitted to be used in existing buildings for grounding purposes only where this ground is concealed or a major portion of the ground is concealed. An approved nonferrous metal tag shall be attached to the ground clamp giving warning against its removal.

Russ

per 250.184(C) the noodle could be bare, The GEC could be also, as well as a variety of bonds run to the same MBJ strip.

I've done this myself, having #4 run everywhere as a bond on a 200A service with the same GEC.

So i can see some possible confusion should one wish to do some diagnostics.

Possibly 310.11(D)(optional markings) does not, at first, seem to apply to a GEC, but i see no harm in a 'GEC' tag.

The GEC tags are the one thing every contractor installs in the Chicago area, even though I tell them the NEC doesn't require it. The tag even has the Chicago Code section on it.

Oh yeah,

I say purple.

Black, Red, Blue, and

Brown, Orange, Yellow, although not NEC required are the color code recommended by NECA and used by union contractors, which usually gets adopted by non-union contractors as well.

So since all the other colors are used, purple only makes sense so as not to confuse it with anything else...anywhere.

I've had to drive 100 miles to change a piece of tape that one of the guys put on a GEC for a transformer. And it still makes me mad. The job couldn't stop for me to argue my case.
The inspector had no reason to deny the job.
There's no requirement for a GEC to be any color, but now I just strip 'em bare where exposed so I don't have to deal with it...S

Thanks all, for the replies.

Had a Non-Compliance issue in Fullerton just recently, where I was helping my Father do a Residential Service upgrade.
I left the GEC's Insulation Black, and that was written up as the only correction. AHJ wanted Green, so I taped them Green and all is OK now.

Not something to start an arguement or debate over, but I would have liked to ask for an article quote, just to verify we were all on the same Hz

Scott35 S.E.T.

Scott, I have said it a million times. Any job, anywhere, any inspector. If they feel the need they will come up with something. Even if it is bullbleep. Your inspector has now created a violation as this is NOT and equipment grounding conductor it should not be green. It might have been good to mention this. Even inspectors can learn something new.

Scott35

How in the heck can we expect to get the point across to the members here, if we have to deal with this type of foolish code interpretation!

I would challange that inspector immediately to include the entire building department in that city, and ask where they got this information!

This is a serious waste of your time, my time, and the valuable time of our members!

Can you provide an email address for this person or city department so we (I) can let the inspector know that he is incorrect!!

PS: The weather here in San Diego right now is very pleasant! I am sure it will be the same in Phoenix next week!

E-Scott and Joe,

You guys are right! I should have made an inquiry to the Inspector about this, in order to try and help out where code items are mistaken (and to stop rampant errors from being repeated).

I will make inquiry to article quotes the next time this comes up.

Also will cover this crucial point (print-out multiple copies of this thread) to the persons I mentioned in the original topic starting post, so they will have a reference to go by - instead of just saying "Scott T. Says So", and also join the crucade to remove bunk-NEC quotations!

Very imbarassed!!!

Scott35 S.E.T.

p.s. maybe this thread is enlightening to members, so they can experience how even a simple thing such as GEC coloring might be something to think more about with an inspection... at least not to follow my example!

s.e.t.

Scott35:

I will be here to support you.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-08-2003).]

What section of the code can be cited to say that the GEC cannot be green?
Don

None that I know of either.
I did'nt care for it when Chicago included in their code, to prohibit the color green from the grounding conductor. I wrote an amendment to our code to require it to be green. I thought that it being green is more practicle.

Russ

indeed that is very instering part about using egc ... but somehow i try rember older codes book say the same thing ( i have 96 verison and 99 with me and 02 partal done allready) BUT this can make other persons confuseing about useing egc i can understand that about the colour codes using that and unforealy in france the colour is green with yellow strips but by the way check on the internaonal colour codes i am sure they will say the same thing about the egc but all i want to make it more uniform with all sparkys here and inspecter to work together to slove this probem what we been dealing for very long time i know some of the old timers here can recall it the same way as now still kinda of mess here and i will like have every one join in together and get this mess clear up

merci marc

See 310.12(B) and 250.119 ..... says it all!

We have to stop beating up on the dead horse!!

I am sure, again based upon my knowledge of past proposals that this issue was discussed in the proposed changes to the 1996 NEC.

If someone can look into the ROP I believe the committee comment to the proposal to color the GEC green, will clear the up question.

IF THE NEC IS USED, THE GEC CANNOT BE IDENTIFIED AS A GREEN CONDUCTOR!!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-07-2003).]

Joe,
There is nothing in the two sections that you cited that says you can't use green for the grounding electrode conductor. The wording in 250.119 requires the use of green for equipment grounding conductors, but does not forbid its use for the grounding electrode conductor. There is no wording in the NEC that reserves green for equipment grounding only. While 310.12(C) can be cited to prevent the use of green for an ungrounded conductor, it can't be cited to say that green can't be used for the GEC. If the grounding electrode conductor can be any color except white, gray or green, how can we comply with 310.12(C)??? The grounding electrode conductor is a grounding conductor. I think that you can make a better case, that the GEC must be green by citing 310.12(C), then you can by citing 250.19 and 310.12 to say that the GEC can't be green.
Yes, there was a proposal and panel statement, an inspector must cite a section, not an panel comment, on the violation notice. There is not a code section in the 2002 code that prevents the use of green for the grounding electrode conductor.

The wording in the two sections quoted above is clearly different than the wording in 200.7 that reserves the use of white or gray for the grounded conductor. If green is to be exclusively for the equipment grounding conductor, and not for the grounding electrode conductor, then the code must be changed.

Don

Don:

You can live with your interpretation and your personal opinion, and be among those in the industry who might agree with you.

I will stick to my guns, and continue to call it a VIOLATION!

Joe,
Please quote the actual words in the NEC that say you can't use green for the GEC. All you ever do, when challenged as to the actual code wording, is say "I'm right and you're wrong" without citing code words to back up your statements. This forum is to be a learning process, and if it is to work as such, the actual code language must be used. The sections that you cited say what you must use green for, but do not limit the use exclusively to EGCs. This is just like 110.15 where the use of orange is required for the high leg of 120/240 volt 3 phase 4 wire delta system, but this rule does not prevent the use of orange on other conductors.
Is a grounding electrode conductor an "grounding conductor"? If it is, please tell me how 310.12(C) can be complied with when you are using a color other than green for the GEC. If the GEC is not a "grounding conductor", then what is it?
Don

Again, I will stick to my guns, and continue to call it a V I O L A T I O N !

PS: I wonder what the IBEW and NECA and JATC have to say?

Joe,
110.3 has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. Again, you have not provided any code citations to support your position.

Please respond to these questions.
1) Is a grounding electrode conductor an "grounding conductor"?
2) If it is, please tell me how 310.12(C) can be complied with when you are using a color other than green for the GEC?
3) If the GEC is not a "grounding conductor", then what is it?

Don

Again!!


Again, Green or Green With A Yellow Stripe is assigned to be used for identification of the EGC only!!

You are welcomed to cast your vote here:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000252.html

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-07-2003).]

Joe,
Please read the words in the sections that you are citing. While they certainly do require the use of green for insulated EGCs, there is nothing in those words that limit the use of green to EGCs. Please show me the words that limit green to equipment grounding conductors only. I don't see those words in my code book. We have to use the words that are actually in the code book, not the ones that we "are sure that are there"!!

Why won't you respond to the questions I have asked about 310.12(C)?

1) Is a grounding electrode conductor an "grounding conductor"?

2) If it is, please tell me how 310.12(C) can be complied with when you are using a color other than green for the GEC?
3) If the GEC is not a "grounding conductor", then what is it?

This will be covered in the 2005 ROP as there is a proposal on this very question. CMP 6 will have to address the color of the GEC and correlate it with the rule in 310.12(C).

IF THE NEC IS USED, THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR MUST BE GREEN PER 310.12(C)!!

I think that you are correct that there is a panel statement that says you can't use green for the grounding electrode conductor, but I need to see the code words that support this statement. You can't cite panel statements on a violation notice.

Don

resqcapt19 --

Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor used to connect ... to the grounding electrode conductor.

Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conncetor used to connect ... to the equipment grounding conductor.

It is clear that they are different.

I believe that the code is silent on the color of the GEC. I prefer bare.

Section 310.12(C) has nothing to do with the GEC!

Am i missing something? Grounds can be any color but grn, gray or white.

interesting edits Joe

Strip the darn thing and forget it.
PS I've got some jobs coming up in that jurisdiction...and I'll be sure to test this Always question authority, but sometimes it costs less to just get along with the AHJ.
I really wish I had the time to fight City Hall...S

exactly Scott,
thus the Naked King marches on...

I must be nuts to get in here, but I must also ask, where is the GEC prohibited from being green. I agree it is not mandated to be green.

I've got to go with Don on this, and for anyone that may think I'm just taking Don's side, you would have to know our history of not agreeing.

Roger

Joe,
So what you are telling me is that the grounding electrode conductor is not a grounding conductor!!!!
Don

Where do you see the GEC color identification included here?

What is your understanding of an ungrounded conductor?



This figure is from the NECH www.nfpa.org and cleary shows where the GEC is bare!

No color is assigned to the GEC in any of the figures throughout the NECH, so why is there so much confusion here?

Green is the color used the identify the EGC!!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-08-2003).]

No color ID needed for a covered or insulated GEC.

See 1992 TCR, page 176, Log # 703, Proposal 5-206.

[This message has been edited by Gwz (edited 03-08-2003).]

Joe,
Ok, it doesn't exactly say that the GEC must be green, but it does say that whatever color that you use for the grounding electrode conductor cannot be used as an ungrounded conductor in that facility.
The grounding electrode conductor is a grounding conductor, or do you dispute this fact, too?
If you use black for the grounding electrode conductor you can't use black for any hot conductor within that same facility because to do so would violate 310.12(C). The easiest way to comply with 310.12(C) is to make the GEC green. There is no wording that restricts the use of green for EGCs only. The code rule in 250.119 just says that the EGC must be green if insulated, it doesn't say that other conductors can't be green. This section doesn't even say that hot conductors can't be green. The prohibition of the use of green for ungrounded conductors is found in 310.12(C). The rule in 310.12(C) is the only restriction on the use of the color green. This section does not prevent the use of green for the GEC. If the code intended that green be reserved for equipment grounding conductors exclusively, then why isn't 250.119 written using similar language to that in 200.7 where the use of white and gray is restricted to grounded conductors only?
So now the rules in the handbook over ride those in the code book!!!. 250.62 clearly permits the grounding electrode conductor to be "covered, insulated or bare".
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 03-08-2003).]

Don:

The 2002, and earlier NECH commentary, and the images are always reviewed by the CMP Chairmen, and by the NEC Technical Committee Chairman, and they too agree with me, because if they agreed with you, we would see the GEC as a GREEN Conductor in some the NECH diagrams and images!

When we see the ROP, if and I think there was, the proposal or proposals asking to use a color.

I don't know what the actions were, so we will have to wait for the report.

You can continue to tell your students to make it GREEN if they want, or black or bare!

I still disagree with you, but I do stand ready to admit defeat if and when the time comes!

Will you as well??



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-08-2003).]

Joe,
My comment about the information in the handbook is only a response to the statement in your post of 6:29 AM on March 8. The statement you made said, "This figure is from the NECH www.nfpa.org and cleary shows where the GEC must be bare! This is not a correct statement. The code permits the GEC to be "bare, covered, or insulated" in 250.62. If this statement is in the handbook, then the handbook is wrong, no matter who reviewed it.

If the a panel acts on a proposal for the GEC color, I will abide by their action. However, after reviewing the proposal, I don't think there will be any panel action on the proposal for 310.12 (6-18) to require a green GEC as the color of the GEC is not within the scope of Panel 6. This was pointed out by the Technical Correlating Committee in the '96 code cycle. Panel 6 had accepted a proposal for the 96 code (proposal 6-32) at both the proposal and comment stage, to require a green GEC, but this proposal was reported as "rejected" because the TCC said panel 6 did not have jurisdiction. I didn't see a proposal submitted to Panel 5 for the GEC color, but I might have missed it. If there is a proposal for Panel 5, we will get an official panel statement.

For the time being, we will just have to "agree to disagree" on the GEC color.

Don

Ashame those powerpoint people led you astray Joe.
I guess one gets what one pays for

I know it doesn't affect this discussion, but just as a matter of interest, the Canadian Electrical Code requires all system grounding, equipment bonding, and grounding electrode conductors to be colored or identified green, when insulated.

Ed

Per the 310.12, as previously noted above,

it appears that the NEC should mandate a color for a covered or insulated GEC.

310.12(A) Grounded Conductor ID, (200.6).
eliminates White or Gray.

310.12(B) Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) ID (250.119).

310.12(C) Ungrounded Conductor(s) ID (last 12 words of 1st sentence).

This Section does not leave many common colors to be used for the coverd or insulated GEC.

I certainly do not know why Green should not be used. The GEC is for grounding.

If some other color than Green were to be used for a premise GEC, then a Sign would need to be prominate on eacb panelboard through-out the premise to abide by 210.4(D) to include the GEC color is not to be used as an ungrounded conductor.

Don:

I agree with your comments here, and I corrected my statement above.


I really would like to see the code make it clear that GREEN can be used for the GEC, EGC, EBJ, and MBJ when a conductor is used ....

Now here's another question on the "EBJ" pigtail used to ground the receptacle green screw to the system EGC in a box using a listed clip or screw .. does it have to be green, or must it be bare?

Joe,
Don't we have the same issue with the bonding jumpers and equipment bonding jumpers as we have with the grounding electrode conductors? The color is not specified in the code.

I agree that it would be best if the code was changed to require all of the bonding and grounding conductors to be green green. We'll have to see what the ROP says when it comes out in July.

Don


[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 03-09-2003).]

As was mentioned briefly in an earlier post, if you use a covered or insulated conductor for the GEC, as is allowed by the NEC, and you use a conductor insulated or covered that is black, aren't you then prohibited by art. 310.12(c)from using a black insulated conductor as an UNGROUNDED conductor anywhere else in the same electrical system? Art. 310.12(C)" Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as a single conductor or in multiconductor cables, shall be finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors." The same being true if you used any other color conductor other than green since art. 200.6 requires all GROUNDED conductors to be white or natural gray and specifically NOT green. So by deductive reasoning here's my interpretation: The grounding electrode conductor can be bare or covered or insulated. If it is covered or insulated it cannot be white, natural gray or the same color as any UNGROUNDED conductor within the same electrical system. Since a green ungrounded conductor is a clear violation we know there won't be any green UNGROUNDED conductors in an electrical system(at least not intentional ones). As I see it the 2002 NEC compliant installation is either bare or, if insulated or covered, green or re-marked with green. Doesn't the NEC make it clear that GROUNDED conductors must be identified with white or natural gray. GROUNDING conductors must be bare, green or green with yellow stripes. UNGROUNDED conductors must be covered or insulated and can be identified with any color NOT assigned to the GROUNDED or GROUNDING conductors as set forth in arts. 250.119 and 200.6.

O.K., usual disclaimers: Johnny Foreigner, not on intimate terms with the intricacies of the language used in the NEC, etc.

I haven't had a chance to scan the NEC for other articles that might affect this argument, but based on those cited in this thread I have to agree with Don's interpretation that there is nothing to say that the GEC cannot be green.

As a first step I double checked on the NEC definitions of GEC and EGC just in case I was missing something. In fact I was wondering if the term equipment grounding conductor could be taken to include the GEC, thereby making use of green (or green/yellow or bare) mandatory for the GEC, but no, the NEC definition of the EGC makes it clear that it does not include the GEC.

200.7 reserves the colors white and gray for use as grounded circuit conductors only. It seems everybody is agreed that the GEC cannot, therefore, be white or gray.

250.119 specifies the methods that must be used to identify an EGC. It makes no mention of the GEC, neither does it specify that green (or green/yellow) must not be used for conductors other than an EGC.

310.12(B) seems to be a superfluous entry to me. It just says that equipment grounding conductors must comply with 250.119. Again, no mention whatsoever of the GEC, either directly or by cross-reference to 250.119.

It does seem that 310.12(C) might indeed prevent plain black from being used as the GEC if black is used as an ungrounded (phase) conductor in the installation (as it almost certainly will be). This rule just catches what colors may NOT be used for the GEC if that same color is already in use as an ungrounded conductor. It in no way says that green may not be used for a GEC (unless green is being used as a phase somewhere!).

310.12(C) just mentions "distinguishable" rather than colors. Presumably this would allow black to be used as the GEC if it were suitably tagged at regular intervals, thereby making it easily distinguishable from a plain black ungrounded conductor. Marking with green tape seems to be the easiest way to achieve this.

Sorry Joe, but I don't see how 250.119 and 310.12(B) that you cited could be interpreted in any way as to make it a violation to use green for the GEC. Could you explain how you come to this interpretation?

From near the top of this thread:
OK, I'm not familiar with the way these Code Panels operate, but what did they cite to backup their assertion that the GEC may not be green? 200.7 clearly specifies, by exclusion, that the GEC cannot be white or gray, but there's still nothing there to say it cannot be green.

I agree with the last part of the quote. The GEC and other bonding cables should be obvious as to their function whatever color they may be. Even if some interpretation of the NEC meant that green was not permitted for the GEC, would anybody argue that such use could constitute a safety problem?

To paraphrase that last quote, if the installer doesn't understand the purpose of a green-colored GEC at the busbar, he still has no business being inside the panel.

An afterthought: There doesn't seem to be anything which specifies that green cannot be used as an ungrounded conductor, except for 310.12(C) which would prhibit such use if green is used for the EGC. Does this mean that if all EGCs are left bare or identified green/yellow that plain green could be used as a hot?


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-09-2003).]

Hi Paul, you're a brave man. However, I agree with you entire post.

Roger

LOOK AGAIN:



READ YOUR COMMENT AGAIN


This is not what the my original quote says!!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-09-2003).]

Joe, what does have to do with anything.

All due respect, you seem to be grasping for straws here.

Roger

Roger:

When discussing the National Electrical Code and the way in which it is interpreted in this country, I would expect that those who have the time to write such a detailed personal opinion about what they read here, would do so with some knowledge of the code making system here in this country.

My questions were not grasping for straws, they were posted to the writer just to level the playing field a bit.

I would ask the same of anyone who responded to the threads here with their personal opinions, especially this one!

Don said...

Gentlemen,
It seems as though this arguement could last for some time.But until that time,I see nothing that prohibits the use of green for the GEC and green is used extensively in these parts.

Joe,
I think that you are way out of line with your comments to Paul, and you didn't respond to his questions.

Do you have a proposal number and year for the proposal that you are talking about? I'd like to read the proposal and comments myself. Its not fair for you to quote what you think that you remember about a proposal, but not give us enough details so that we can look it up ourselves. The only proposal on this subject that I have found in the 95 ROP is 6-32 which would have required the GEC to be green. Panel 6 accepted this at both the proposal and comment stage, only to have the TCC report it as rejected because the color of the GEC is not within the scope of Panel 6.
Don

OK, I removed the statement.

You should edit your posts too, and when I get home I will search for that information.

I have received an email from a very well known instructor who said the following:

"Hi Joe:

I tell people that the grounding electrode conductor (GEC) can be "bare, or any color but green, white, green/yellow or orange" in my PV power systems and the NEC presentations that I make to electrical inspectors and electricians and PV professionals. Most use bare with black as a distant second choice.

I do not favor a new color as it will be hard to get in many locations and will take years to educate and implement."

I'm with txsparky. Where ahj's are involved around here,green on anything to do with the gec or bonding is the norm.

Posted by Joe

You always tell us to ask inspectors for code cites, so I ask you where are the very well known instructors code cites?

Even if we know that something is the CMPs intent if it did not make it in to the code book is it enforceable?

iwire:

No, but the panel statement for the rejection is often used by instructors to explain the CMP's position.

See the following set of specifications for grounding by those who want to avoid confusion in the design of their buildings:
www.va.gov/facmgt/standard/spec/16450.doc

Note: the term "bare" for is required for the GEC, etc.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-10-2003).]

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?...=section+16450+electrical+specifications

Please look at the links here for grounding specifications and find where they use a color for the GEC.

I will look too, and I believe that most call for "bare" to be used.

Joe,
I looked through the links that you provided and agree that some engineers seem to spec a bare wire for the GEC. However,I thought this discussion was about whether or not the NEC prohibited green to identify the GEC.Just because an engineer specs bare wire has no bearing on the discussion and certainly doesn't make it a code rule.

With all due respect I do not see where CMP comments, intent, or knowledge of the code making process is relevant here.

If the discussion is about what is written in the code the answer should be indisputable. (I believe that most of us can read quite well) If the code is wrong, or failed to convey the intent of the CMP that is another story entirely.

Bill

Aw man, even my bare GECs end up turning green anyway...

Almost like they know what color to be...

I'd be asking for a code ref should stripping long runs of 1/0 GEC bare be desired

Joe,
I admit to having no knowledge of the way in which the code panels come to their decisions, and I'm sure that you were already aware that although I have worked in the U.S.A. it was not in a field which required knowledge of the NEC. That's why I started my post the way I did.....

However, surely the original question was whether using green for the GEC is a violation of the (2002) NEC, as published.

If an AHJ adopts the NEC, surely they do so only on the basis of what is written in the publication? (Plus any written amendments they have the authority to make.)

Can an inspector working strictly to the NEC cite a violation on the basis of what he believes the panel meant to say, or what he thinks they should have said? Surely he can only pass or fail on the basis of what is actually written in the rules? I seem to recall several discussions to this effect in the past.

Like many of the other posters in this thread, I just don't see any way to interpret the specific codes you cited as prohibiting the use of green for a GEC.

If I'm missing something or there is another section I should be reading which could in some way modify 250.119 et al, then please point me toward it -- I am trying to study sections of the NEC as and when I get the chance in order to learn more!