Is the public being treated fairly when an electrical inspection agency (non-city) does the inspections in certain areas?

I am aware of customers who use other agencies because they were not as strict!

Is this true in your area?

One case comes to mind and it deals with 300.4(D) and 300.23 in the 2002 NEC.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Joe, I've done inspections for real estate people, and after seeing my laundry list of needed repairs, I'd never hear from them again. When inspecting for prospective buyers, I am free to open boxes and snoop around as much as I have to in order to get a clear understanding of the quality of the electrical installation. Yet, city or county inspectors don't have time, nor permission, to snoop so thoroughly. I think third party inspections can be more thorough.

But it all depends on who is paying the bill. Its always a money/time thing.

As far as particular parts of the code are concerned, I think that an inspector that is going to enforce things in a certain area for a long time will try to attend to things which will cause problems down the line..as in the case of the two articles you mentioned. If someone is just doing a bit of short-order inspection fill-in, they might want to make it profitable instead of thorough. We don't have any regular inspections done that way here in my area of Oregon. Like I mentioned, it might be done for real estate transactions, or for temporary contracts to fill in for an inspector who is ill, or on vacation, or overloaded with work, but not as a regular "third party inspection service" like you are referring to.




[This message has been edited by Elzappr (edited 02-22-2003).]

Joe,

Here in NJ sometimes the third party people get a lot of territory to cover. They might get 5-10 inspections but the might have to travel several counties to get from one to the next inspection. That sometimes leads to fast inspections and sometimes things can get missed. I myself am not pro nor anti 3rd party. My good friend (crazy joe) is still a third party man. Also remember here in NJ the towns make the homeowner/contractor pay for inspection under the construction permit. Plus there is only one fee. That pays for as many inspections as needed in order to get the job passed. I have been out 3-4 and more times to try and get a job in order to be able to pass final inspection.

what is the difference in tax dollar $$$$$$$ or 3rd party $$$$$$$$ ????

why would the govermental inspection community begrudge privitization when they cannot possibly do the job in any equitable sense now?

what are we saying here Joe?

unfuzz me!

I think Harold gets the picture. He makes it even clearer for us. I was talking about competition between agencies.

Are there local electrical inspectors in Vermont?

If so, can you give me an address of the largest job still under, or close to completion?

I'll take a ride someday and have a look see to see the quality of inspection, and I am sure it will be up to snuff if they inspect like they write their rules up there!

I am unaware of any other 'electrical inspectors', other than HI's here.
The state of Vermont at best creates a paper chase and insufficent manpower to back it up.

The biggest and most likely closest job here will be the upcomming Brattleboro parking garage, which may actually garner appropriate attention.

To imply the notion of competition amongst AHJ's in my mind is analogous to procrastinating over filet mignon or prime rib in the presence of Ethiopians

We have very large job going at a college in VT, Burlington area I think I have not been there yet I think we got at least a year left on it. I can get an address if you want.

Joe,

Let me add 2 more cents here. In the goverment or in the third party inspectors there are good inspectors and the not so good. Just like in any other trade.

Joe:
Harold said most of it. There are "good" and "bad". No flames, no throwing rocks.

Elzapper:
What Joe is refering to is an inspection company that has a contract with some municipalities (here in NJ, and perhaps elsewhere) to perform various building inspections. (Electrical, Plumbing, Fire, Elevator, Mechanical) These agencies employ licensed inspectors, and the inspections are performed under a contract. He is not refering to "Home inspections", just work performed under a permit.

AS Harold ststed, the 3rd party guys can be "overloaded", as also the town guys.

PS, I'm a EC, and a PT AHJ, so I see both sides of the fence.
John

I was going to rant, but decided to say this:
There is a third party inspector around these parts that is a EE, a PE, and certified inspector, and doesn't know his *** from a hole in the ground. I have complained to the city, to no avail.

I have no problem with third party inspectors with the exception of this one.

And if I ever see him again...

Let me add another 2 cents here. In NJ all lic. contractors must have 10 hours of CEU's to renew their licenses every 3 years. As an electrical inspector ( depending on their ICS,HHS, subcode official and/or construction offical license.) we have to take 3 to 5 five hour courses every three years to renew our inspectors license. The point I am trying to make is that our state MAKES us keep our nose in the NEC. We can't get away from it. Before the state made us take CEU's, I knew of some old timers who wouldn't open the book to make sure that they are wiring a job correctly. Even if one a job that they never did before. Now that was scary.

Due to the large amount of construction where I work as a municipal inspector, we hired a third party agency to do inspections for a few weeks, mostly mechanical and electrical. I asked that the third party handle certain types of inspections for electrical such as roughs. But my boss said to schedule them all types.

When I went back to reinspect a failed service inspection, the items that were written on the inspection report were taken care of, but several other items were missed and I had to fail the job again. They were only small items...a missing main bond screw and a ground clamp that wasn't tightened at all.

I'm sorry, but inspectors can take all the tests they want but they will never be truly qualified to inspect systems they do not have experience installing. the code does not teach you how about a million different parts go together properly.

Steve T

They were only small items... A Missing main Bonding Jumper (screw) and a loose ground clamp!!!

Let's be sure to understand that these are MAJOR CODE VIOLATIONS!!

Your Comment:


AMEN!! SO TRUE!!

Steve, doesn't your building department have a hit list of "must inspect" items? A lot of agencies have a prioritized list of things which must be inspected (especially when times are hectic) and evaluations of the inspectors are based on how well they catch these items (or how badly they miss them!). I'm thinking that even if the inspection duties are outsourced, that there would still be a laundry list given to them so that their priorities matched your prioritites.

Cubby:
Remember that eventually you will have to deal with your "favorite" inspector again, unless he quits, or you move to another location.
Like Harold said. respect has to be given on both sides.
Personally, I feel that all inspectors should have "field" experience, and unfortunatley that is not a prime requirement. (You cannot "test" field exp< I mean "hands-on" down & dirty, in the treenches. Harold is a "field" man, so am I, but there are a few who are "book" guys.
Lets stay calm.......
John

Hotline1:
I don't want to get into the story behind this, but suffice it to say this person cost us about a week changing things to suit his whim(yes, whim), and then the city inspector returned and we had to change things BACK to CODE to pass.
If it had been my decision (not the GC and his money) I would have left things the right way and had it out with the inspector. He was arrogant and abusive about my work to the GC (I was elsewhere) and then I was unable to contact him for an explanation. Respect works both ways, I am not an amateur, I am a professional and this inspector is not. (IMHO)
I can usually stay cool about almost anything, but this level of incompetence really sets the blood-a-boilin', it makes me look bad. (although in the end the GC knew)

Nothing personal intended with this rant, but everybody here seems like a professional and I hope you can understand the frustration.

As far as working with this particular person again, I will simply ask that he give me a thorough explanation of any and all deficiencies including all applicable Code references, and be available for follow-up questions. And when he can't (pretty certain), we'll have a little more to talk about.

Thanks for letting me whine

Cubby:
I get the drift of what you mean now....
Spending a week "doing whim things" would boil my blood also.
We have a system here in NJ, the Construction Board of Appeals, that EC's can take AHJ's to for "problems". (Seems to be working good) I don't know what area you are in, but "whims" do not a violation make here. If there is a violation, NEC Article must be cited.
Also, comments about the EC's work are unprofessional from the AHJ, when they are made to "others".

Sounds to me like this guy is a project manager type, or an "owners rep", from your comment that you had to put everything back to pass city inspection.
John

Cubby,

This time I am going to agree with John. As an AHJ I spent many years in the field and I have delt witht those A**holes Having Hurisdiction. That was one reason I got my own inspectors license. So that when an arrogant inspector said,"Well in MY TOWN, I want it like this." Well that was BS and I would tell the inspector (In a very calm, cool way.) Where is that in the code book? Here in NJ when I fail a job, I have to cite CHAPTER and VERSE of the NEC where it is in the code book. Well to tell you the truth 9 times out of 10, the EC looks at me and says. "Whoops! I guess I missed that one. I will fix it." So the do, and I don't have to give the complete section. They know when they did wrong. I also agree with John, that if it is a minor infraction, I wouldn't stop the whole job. I would let them continue to insulate the house (Especially this time of the year with the cold temps.) and I too would come back on my next normal day in that town. Sometimes I come back the next day if it is on my way.

Ezapper,

I once made a list of the top ten violations for different jobs. ( Rough, final and service inspections, etc.) If I can fin them I would post them if anyone is interested. It does seem like I can carry my top ten lists and 90% of the jobs that fail always fail for the same things. Just different jobs and different contractors. Most of the times it winds up being either a lazy helper, or the job is rushed and something was overlooked.

Joe,

I am sorry, but I don't know how to be sarcastic in writing. Yes I know those were major and that's why I mentioned it.

If an inspector tells you to do something that is absolutely wrong and you can show them where it says so, I would not change something to a non-compliant installation because when someone gets hurt guess who gets sued and guess who has tort immunity.

I would get his boss on the phone if he is a hardhead.

Unfortunately, no we do not have a good complete check list. I have created several diagrams that showed things that contractors make constant mistakes on, but I can't believe someone who is doing inspections misses the first thing that should be checked. (I take that back, I believe it. What I don't believe is that you can make a living protecting people when you don't know what you're doing.)

I work for a third party agency. There are good inspectors and pain in !!!! inspectors. I here stories from contractors about local inspectors saying "we do it this way in our town". I have seen third party inspectors that can work with contractors also. Like any trade there are good and bad. How do you deal with them out?

Inspector grump,

Welcome to this board. There are a lot of good and knowlegeable people here. We all want to work together so please don't be a grump. My best friend works for a third party here in NJ and he is a very fair inspector. I have seen many of those @#$%^& pain in the a** type of inspectors. That is the reason I got my inspectors lic. This way I could talk to them on their own level. BTW do you know a Tony Montori who is the AHJ in Montclair?

[This message has been edited by harold endean (edited 03-15-2003).]

Inspector Grump:
Welcome to ECN...
Yes, there are good & bad everyplace.

I see both sides of the "fence".
Contractor & P/T AHJ for Twp of Edison.

"Down the block from you!!!" & A-ways from Harold.

John

I don't know about where you live but around LA 3rd party inspections ARE big $$$$$$$$.
City inspectors have alot of job security here.

welcome Inspector Grump, i would expand on your question here, but i'm sure i'd burn a gapping hole in cyberspace with the bandwidth conflaguration i would create.

I'd let the DCA deal with them. The DCA from what I hear is very unkind to bad inspectors.

Inspector Grump,

Yes here in NJ the DCA does watch over all of us. Third party and municiple employees. If we screw up too badly, you can bet that the DCA will be after us. For all of you that are not in NJ the DCA is the Department of Community Affairs. They are the people who give us our inspectors licenses. Plus they can take them away!