I know that some breakers will"fit" in other panels of other manufacturers.How would I find out if a particular breaker was listed for use in a given panel? I'm refering to residential loadcenters.I'll confess and say that in the past I've been guilty of using what seemed to fit and work well.

Although some brands of breakers will fit other brand panels,the label on the panel from the manufacturer lists what type of breakers may be used.We are to follow manufacturers instructions.(There won't be one of their competitors breakers on that label)

ga.sparky56

bonsoir :

indeed i see the same situation and one thing that most panelbox breaker i use other manfactuers breaker it will fit but one instering part if i recall it right that the warrnty wont cover it if case malfunction or damaged! i see few store (d.i.y) stores like home depot and few other store did list the breaker can fit in other box and i am not too crazy with that to use other breaker unless very good reason to do that and i know sometime inspecter will voitated that part and other reason i am very carefull selecting breaker due main breaker aic rating too that will affect the breaker performace too

merci marc

UL lists breakers that are approved for use in panels. They include breakers from other manufacturers.

I expect that any breaker that fits COULD pass the UL tests. It is only economics that determine if a breakers has been tested in a specific panel.

Aside from the fact that you are not allowed to void a warantee based on who's breakers are used ....

I have a Single pole 20 amp breaker in my hand that is made by Thomas & Betts it has a tag on one whole side that UL lists the breaker in Murray, Westinghouse, General Electric, Challenger and Thomas & Betts Panels

Bob

I have seen the T&B breakers on display in the supply houses but never really looked at them. Does it say that they are UL LISTED or UL CLASSIFIED for use in the various manufactures of loadcenters? Most inspectors in my area will not accept UL classified products. If the label in the panel/loadcenter does not list another manufactures breaker you can't use it. Same goes for recessed lights. I frequently receive catalogs in the mail for recessed trims that are UL classified for us with Halo, Juno, etc but the inspectors will not accept them unless they are included on the label of the housing.

Curt

Curt,
This breaker is "Listed" with a note that it's short circuit current is 10kA and do not install it in the listed panels if they have more then 10kA available.

You, Me and the Inspector are going to need a magnifying glass to read all the panel model numbers listed on the side, I would say 50 to 75 different panel model numbers.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I'll have to look at one next time I'm at the supply house. I'm still not sure if our inspectors would accept them since they are not included on the loadcenter label but I will bring this up with one of the electrical inspector supervisors next time I see them.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 02-17-2003).]

This seems like another of those problems that keep on popping up. Many times I have seen the argument about listing of breakers. I do know that Cutler Hammer bought out, Bryant, and Challenger and Westinghouse. I also have a letter from Cutler Hammer (C-H) that says, UL has contacted to advise electrical inspectors and others regarding the suitability of it's residential breakers. For the most part the C-H breakers can fit into most Challenger, Bryant or Westinghouse panels. I am not sure about ITE or Murray. I think those two companies merged. So a Murray should be allowed in an ITE. GE and Square D are still seperate. There is an exception. ( Isn't there always.) ITE makes a breaker that fits Square D. It is a 20 amp. breaker.

I've never been called on this by an ahj.My concern is to be as correct and code compliant as possible. Russell

that very true harold indeed too many manfactures keep chaning all the time and few time i ran into very odd balls from time to time one breaker it really ring the bell to me is milbank i deal with that is kinda tricky to find it but i got my catalog book from C-H compaine and show the list what it can run over with other boxes but ite kinda mixed with murrphy but i am little lost there about ite with other companine so if someone else deal with ite breaker let me know so i can deal with it nice way and i see the ch breaker have word classifed right front next to the breaker handle it show really clear but the question about ahj call the shots what it can allowed or not but main thing is check the main breaker for aic rating most have ether 10 or 22 ka rating depend which one deal with it

merci marc

I got caught on this by a GCs Safety Guy. I was Using A Challenger Panel for a Temp and I had C-H Breakers in it, so I got a write up at the first week of a new job. The Breakers I got to replace them were the T&Bs from above, and I kept one out of the panel to show the guy on his next trip.
Bob

Add this to the confusion mix...
Letter on UL letterhead:
Crouse Hinds Distribution Equip Type MP-T cb's as mfg by Siemens ..suitable for use in panelboards by Murray, Arrow Hart, Crouse Hinds, Cooper Industries, and the distribution equip business of Siemens Energy under files E26095 and E13207" blah blah blah.
"MP-T can be used where the equip label specifies MP, MP-A, MP-C"

Oh well....said letter is dated 9/23/1992, and we were given a copy of it last week at the supply house.

John

IMO, this boils down to a turf war.......the manufacturer's should be given a WWF ring and Howard Cosell........

The main reason I asked,was that a lot of areas I work in have no ahj.It sounds like I could do it right and still be wrong?

Admit that it would be a lot easier if all manufacturers used the same standard.

My own belief is that each manufacture should only allow their breaker in their panel. period. This way in case of an accident there will be no one to blame but one manufacture. It gets confusing enough with companies taking over each other every year. Now we have to know which company owns which one? As my post said, I had a letter where Cut-Ham company bought out several other companies. Who know which company is next?

by harold endean
[Quote]My own belief is that each manufacture should only allow their breaker in their panel. period.[Quote]

I do not think the manufacture has a choice whether another company makes breakers for its panel.

I think as long as long as they get a UL listing they are all set.

The Automakers would love it if they could say no one else can make parts for cars.

Bob

The breaker manufacturers are glad to share info about what panels their breakers will fit, but it comes down to what the panelboard labels say, as Txsparky mentioned.

If new info comes from the panelboard manufacturer allowing some breakers which haven't already been listed on the panel label, then there shouldn't be any problem. Trouble is, such updated info is hard to come by, as Hotline1 discussed.

I suppose a call, or e-mail might work, if you have the time. I'm sure the only optional breaker substitutions would be ones where the panelboard manufacturer has taken over someone else's product line.

I was in the BIG ORANGE BOX yesterday and overheard a conversation by an employee with a customer about substitutions, and even though there was a laminated chart showing possible substitutions, the employee insisted that the customer had to go by what the panel label said. A bit of browsing later, I came across some little pamphlet that spelled out the liability that the store would face if they sanctioned or encouraged the use of substitute breakers without actually seeing the old panel. So, in this case, the employee was doing the right thing. The customer was ticked off, but I guess we can't always do things based on what is cheap or convenient, eh?

Hi Bob (and everyone else too)

I haven't had a chance to look at one of the T&B breakers at the supply house but tonight I was looking at them at the T&B web site. http://tnbelectricalworld.tnb.com/contractor/docs/circuit_breakers.pdf Page #8

It says that this circuit breaker is listed for use in circuit breaker enclosures and panelboards intended and marked for its use. I take that as meaning that unless the label on panel you are installing this breaker in specifically says you can use this breaker it is not UL listed but UL Classified. If you read farther down it says compatibility list for classified applications then list the various manufactures and panels. I think the only way a breaker can be UL listed for a panel is if it listed in the panel as an approved breaker. About 15 years ago there was another manufacture making UL classified breakers but none of our inspectors would accept them. They said that they don't accept UL Classified products and won't accept any circuit breakers not listed on the panels.

In the case of Cutler-Hammer they still use the same part numbers as the original Westinghouse/Bryant brand had and they also put the Challenger part number on their breakers. I have never had an inspector question an a Cutler-Hammer breaker in a Bryant or Challenger panel.

Someone mentioned Siemens, ITE and Murray which is a little different matter. The ITE name is an old name which is part Siemens now and so is Murray but the ITE name is not longer used. Siemens has a line of residential equipment with their own name and they also have the Murray line. If you look at the breakers they are identical but they do not have the same part numbers and are not listed for use with both brands. The Siemens can only be used in Siemens equipment and the Murray can only be used in Murray equipment.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 02-23-2003).]

This answers some questions and opens my eyes a bit. Thank you all. Russell

i do agree with russel.. unfortenly it do wake me up better than a cup of coffee . and that is very instering infomation there.

that part i am very carefull with breakers i rather play safe

thanks again

merci marc

iwire,

I know that my thought of "To-each-his-own" breakers is just a pipe dream, but I really try to be fair with contractors and the substitue breakers. If I fail a job and the contractor shows me that I am wrong, then I will back down and apologize for causing any problems.