My electrician says that the 2002 NEC code indicates that all abandoned wire & conduit must be removed. I can't find any reference to the subject. Can someone provide help?

I know of no rule requiring conduit or power wiring to be removed. There are rules for some Chapter 7 and 8 installations. Look at 725.3(B), 760.3(A),770.3(A), 800.52(B), and 820.3(A). Also look at the definition of "Abandoned" in the xxx.2 section of each of these articles.
Don

I can enforce the rule in the NEC that deals with the practical safguarding of people and property, and have the authority to insist that the abandonded wire, etc., be removed!

If I am the AHJ, you must follow my violation notices!

I can also call up the rule dealing with "other factors" found in 110.3(A)8!

I submitted a proposal to address this issue and again it was rejected.

Only one member of CMP 1 agreed with me, and I expect that we will see comments.

This issue is a very serious issue! Why in the past two days here in LA I walked to the convention center from my hotel on Grand avenue (THE PITS) and have taken many pictures, and I have about 6-10 so far showing damaged and abandonded wiring in tree wells, on the walls in a garage and other places showing abandonded LIVE wires.

I will put up a few soon .....



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 02-05-2003).]

ssilbers,

Welcome to ECN,
Can you ask your Electrician to elaborate on the subject a bit? I'd be interested to hear his reasons for saying that too.

Bill

When I do renovation jobs I cut back the conduit to be above ceiling, or concealed in some way, and remove all wires (I ALWAYS take the wires out and cap the ends at the closest j-box just in case someone decided to play around in a panel). From what I have been reading, any accesible telecom or tv wires MUST be removed since they present a danger due to the lack of air flow in accesible areas, but for some reason I have not found any article addressing existing electric. Common sense (I think) says pull it, but I have not found code that says it must be done. At a recent job some poor drywall guy put a nice hole in copper plumbing pipe that the GC said had been abandoned, but it wasn't. The finisher was pissed! Seems like there would be some code for electric conduit since I don't ever recall using EMT as a kick plate!

As a side note. In my facility we would abandon a line, and then leave it up for future use. This happened many times because in a manufacturing plant change is constant. I thought that with an abandoned line you had to leave the covers off the J-boxes to show that it was abandoned. (I have no idea where this came from.) A cal/OSHA consulatation inspector said that we had to put the covers on to prevent a fire from spreading. He said that the fire could go in the open J-box and come out of the other open J-box and spread the fire.

Welcome to the board SS. Pop open a beverage, put your feet up and stay awhile.

Scott

Elec-Va:
Welcome to ECN.
My opinion on removal of abandoned wiring is basically the same as yours.
We remove whatever we can to leave/have a "clean" jobsite. We do this on "most" of our jobs. IF something appears to be useful for future use, we safe-off both ends, and tag it as to location and source.
I know that the '02 addresses removal of certain/most abandoned LV cabling, but the '02 NEC has not yet been adopted here in NJ.

How many times have all or most of us "opened" a drop ceiling panel only to be faced with the rat nest of LV cable, or how many times have we had to "clean it up"??

About time! If its "abandoned", "not used", "old", "from the previous two tenants" then it should go!!!
John

Based on this from the City of Conroe,Texas,I suppose it all comes down to individual inspectors preference;
Sec. 6-50. Same--To be done in workmanlike manner.
All work shall be executed in a neat and workmanlike manner.Slipshod, or work not in keeping with good electrical practice shall be classed as defective and shall be immediately corrected by persons causing same.





(Ord. of 2-13-51, § 7(A))




[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 02-04-2003).]

[This message has been edited by txsparky (edited 02-04-2003).]

HotLine1,
Here in VA, the state still goes of the '96 NEC, as do most municipalities. I like to do my work up to the newest code since there are so many jurisdictions in the DC area you never can tell. I think "go with the newest and sometimes the Inspector won't yell at you I despise going to some run down job where I know that every tile I lift will reign down debris and phone cable on my head. I guess that's why OSHA talks so highly of hard hats and safety glasses!

txsparky,
I lived in central TX (San Angelo) for a while, and I noticed that 110.12 (02' NEC) for "To be done in workmanlike manner." is very much subject to who looks at the work, which I assume is the same in most places. Can be a nasty little code, which is why I use it on my guys a lot. A little pride goes a long way.

Joe,
What reason did the CMP give for rejecting the proposal?
However, without a code rule, I don't think that an inspector can require these abandoned wires to be removed. I think that you could insist that they not be connected to a power source, but beyond that you are making your own code and an inspector can't do that. If an inspector came on my job and insisted on me doing something that was not required by the code and threatened to "make my life miserable" if I didn't comply, I'd be in court requesting a permanent injunction banning that inspector from ever inspecting any of my jobs because of the threatened harassment.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 02-04-2003).]

the only 'hazard' concerning wires that have been dicontinued from thier power source is confusion, rx=identification.

Don:
I agree 100% with you! No AHJ should "make his own code". The "rule" here in NJ is that the AHJ has to cite an article from the NEC, and 90-4 don't count too much anymore.

My opinions stated in my post above are my opinions as a contractor! My opinion as an AHJ is:
THere is no NEC article to cite, so I cannot "make" anyone remove abandoned power wiring.

I did not intend my opinion and comments to upset you or anyone else at ECN
John

Joe,


To see a whole potporri of crazy installations, head east about 2.5 - 3 miles from the Convention Center and you will be able to fill maybe four 128 MB Flashcards with images right off the bat!!!

Take a stroll down Pico Blvd. until you get to Broadway. North to 4th St. (around the high rises). East for about 1/2 - 1 mile.

This is a very depressing part of town, and I am only poking fun at the businesses which have opted to have cheesy people install stuff in highly cheesy ways (and continue to allow this to reoccur!), not the homeless people in the area.

Better yet, forget this suggestion and head straight for Beverly Hills!!! I have seen an almost equal level of Electroclown-activity in various locations there too!

I 10 west to Robertson or National. North for about 4 miles. west on Wilshire Blvd.
Be sure to wave at everyone when you get there!
They love it!! <joke>

So much for humor!

Scott35 S.E.T.

IMO.....

fascit stances sour the trade for many.

I shall, quietly, simply agree with Don and Sparky.

Len

Hotline,

I use to hate when inspectors quoted 90-4 at the wrong times. This was one of the reasons I got my own inspectors license. We all know that the NEC is a minimum code. We can all do what is in the code book and better. You are correct that in NJ if I fail some one for a job and he questions my decision, I have to back it up with a code section "chapter and verse." For the most part if I see something and tell the contractor, he knows that I am right and that there is a code section to back me up. He will usually just fix the problem and not complain.

Scott35

I can see that you are in tune with my concerns about electrical safety!!

Can we take a ride around the city to the areas you mentioned? I'll be in LA until the 13th.

I guess I'll have to post the links again to some of pictures of accidents caused by unsafe wiring to show again the reasons why we should be concerned about this issue!

Some people from small towns only with two story buildings seem to be missing the point here, and they are entitled to their opinion, but really should spend some time in the big cities and move away from their desks and walk the city streets -- man what they will see and learn!

Don:

The reason for the rejection will be in the ROC, I was not in the room when they supplied the comment for rejection.

so Joe,
are you to post accidential hangings via deenergized wires here?
if so,perhaps i have indeed led a shealtered carear out in the puckerbrush.



i see, so it is a process in which rational conclusions take a back seat to personal volume?

as i have always suspected.......

Joe,
In most of the pictures that you post, we have no way of knowing if the conductors or equipment are still connected to a power source. If they are still connected they would be a hazard, but if no longer connected there is no electrical hazard. I'd love for the code to be changed ro require all unused electrical conduit, equipment and conductors to be removed beacaue I get paid by the hour and it would create a lot of work, but the code does not require this at this time and no inspector has the right to require a contractor to do this work.
Don

I shall, quietly, simply agree with Don, Sparky, and Len.

Just try to pull NM out of walls.

I can understand Joe's position. We always try to pull out the old junk whenever we can.The thing in my mind is when sparkys and ahj's get into a pissing contest no one wins.I know there are plenty of bad ones on both sides.The few counties that have an ahj here, they are good ones and easy to work with. I just wish we had one in my home county to even argue with.

Escuse my spellin, folks, but us narow minded country folk ain't smart enough to lern much past the aithe grade, never mind bein cognosant of the big city inferstrukture problems. Don't got no desks here, neither, use the kitchin tabel to do writin and cipherin. Put the ole puter on it and ring up Mabel down the switchboard to clear the party line - Comin at yah, ma bell, at 56 killobites! I talked to a sparky from East LA online yesturday. We's discussin PPE and work condishuns. I told him bout how ya needs good s&#t boots up here fer all yer barn jobs and ladder hooks when ya work on one of them two story highrisers. I told him horrer stories bout wires runnin thru cow s@#t, open air splicers, and electric fence aksidents. He tells me he's got even worse condishuns. Tells me ya needs somethin called kevlar full body PPE and a H-K MP9 thing on some of his jobs. Says it dont leeve much room fer the tools. Tells me the local folk steals the loominom lamppole covers, ground wires, and even sometimes pull out the LIVE wires -- fer scrapin! Says the other messed up stuff is cause of gangs of delinkwents. Reminds me of them Erickson boys and that slingshot -- anyway, he went on bout the highfalootin rich sparkys who wont even look at a job in his hood, says theys too busy goin to convenshuns and tellin him to fix everthing but the biznusmen and the goverment dont want to pay him to do it. Says he trys to hire good guys but nobody with skils wants to work there and the guys that do aint very good and do cheezy work. Tells me the rich people has even been tryin to succeed from the city so's they aint got to pay taxes to help fix it, too. Says its a real mess and ther just aint no easy solushun. Told me the rich sparkys will get bored with his problems and find somethin else to complane bout in a few days. He figures that the both of us got are share of problems. Says I got my barns and boots and he's got his hood, and both of them kinda stink sometimes, but we's just got to fix em as best we can and not expeckt any real help from dogooders. Pretty sharp feller fer a city boy, that sparky.

editted - had ta fix some mispelt werds

[This message has been edited by Len_B (edited 02-05-2003).]

For the past 15 years or so, the NYCTA (the folks running the run-down subway here in New York City) has been replacing its incandecent platform lighting with modern fluorecent fixtures.

In the old days, they would install the new fixtures and either leave the incandecent bulbs burning until they finally died or disconnect those circuits from the panels.

The lampholders were left in place with their blackened bulbs. Some would eventually get smashed by people throwing rocks at them.

Then the TA started removing the bulbs and inserting what looked like CORKS into the lampholders.

I think this was done in order to prevent the ceiling painters from getting shocked from a potential live lampholder with no bulb (or a broken stump). The lampholder with its cork and everything would get painted right over.

Now they get fancy and remove the fixture, cap off the brittle wires and put a blank plate over the ceiling box. This gets painted over next time the ceiling gets painted. That's how I got one of these fixtures (I asked the guy taking them down if I could have one)

For a truly invisible job, they've taken to removing the lampholders and FILLING IN THE BOX WITH CONCRETE!!!

I don't know if they leave the old wires in there or what because sometimes when I go to a station where the long-defunct incanecent fixtures have been taken down, you see squares where the box was filled in, smoothed out and painted over.

Over time these will blend in to the rest of the soot-covered surface.

There have been times when (and the underground station in my neighborhood is a prime example) where existing conduit has bee re-used.

In my case, some of the old incandesent fixtures were taken down, new wire was fished through, box extenders installed in every-other-box and then the emergency lights (small u-shaped fluorecent boxes) were hooked up to these extenders with a short piece of conduit. The other existing boxes that weren't used were covered with blanking plates.

The subway walls and floors/ceilings are solid masonry, of course....so a lot of add-on newer conduit is surface mounted or suspended by straps from the ceiling.

And then there are the kluges where low voltage wire for communications of some sort or another has been secured with tie wraps to existing pipes (water, electric, gas, who knows).

lol~Len_B.....
Discrimination has many forms, yet to be dismissed as a hick-electrician in an on-line debate is most a most laughable ad hominem attack imaginable.

The fact is, the rural contingent is the higher percentage. Most of us in rural areas are daily ambassadors of the code, simply by default.

While we are out doing our best to present the code as the pillar of safety in the trenches of construction, others pursue frivilous endevors to add to our list.

All to the end of personal notability....

So, paint me as living in a cave , with a kite to my cow's tail for internet connection if you like.

Yet i'll rest assured that in the course of my carear i'll create more electrical safety thru plain old common sense and my own 2 hands, than any consultant blowhard with an ego the size of his a**

yrs
~Steve

Oops! did,nt read the small-town post until now.Well being as we didn't have an inside bathroom in the house until I was about 13,I guess that lumps me in with Len and sparky. As I said before, it would be neat just to see some basic code compliance in my county.

wasn't considered a local until i buried my fifth dog on my spread. as an inspector i like to see the abandoned wiring identified as such and isolated at the panel.see old knob and tube, mineral sheathed,etc. veritable archaelogical sites when inspecting in these parts.leave it all.it's fun to look at down the road!

Welcome!

What part of the country are you from, and where do you serve as the AHJ?