I'm having trouble coming up with a plan to provide enough receptacles to this kitchen island to meet code.

The ends shoud be okay and will probably need two at each end, but there is an area in the center that would need a receptacle as well.

The dimensions are: 5' deep by 6'6" wide.
Adjacent to the sink is a compactor (to the left of the sink), and a dishwasher (to the right).

The more I think about it, the more receptacles this thing is gonna need!

Help!

Any ideas?



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-18-2002).]

Virgil

Only one receptacle is required for an Island counter with a long dimension of 24" or greater in length and a short dimension of 12" or greater. Since there this a sink in the middle of your island it will probably be considered 2 counter spaces so 1 receptacle on each end would be sufficient.

Curt

It appears that only 1 recept is needed on an island.

Virgil,

Relax, Breathe ...
Look at 210.52(C)(2) and 210.52(C)(4)


Bill

Virgil:

Did you create that image?

Only one is needed on that island. Install one one the side and you are fine. I (succesfully?) argue that only one is needed because that is one "island counter space". Even with the sink the two ends are not really separated the way the counter extends accross behind the sink. Most inspectors around here would agree and common sense would prevail.



[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 12-19-2002).]

Doh!



Y'know, I rarely have to deal with these dern things!

One on each end will do it!

Whew!


TG, 3D Home Architect Deluxe 3.0 ...
As mentioned in another thread, its got some bugs, but does a fine job for the things I use it for!




[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-19-2002).]

I think one on the island would do it.

E-Scott,

I'll bid for two and install one... (Just in case)...

Thanks, Virgil.

I think I would put one on each end.It may be one more than what is required but it may get you some points with the customer that may come in handy on some other issue.Don't forget the range vent!
Chris

So you install an outlet on the end. The owner plugs in a deep fryer and sits it on the counter. Their 3 year old pulls on the cord and ends up with boiling hot grease in the face. Damn I hate the code sometimes.

I agree Bob. I know it is code but I give the option to the homeowner. I explain the pros and cons and let them decide. AHJ is gennerally reasonable on this. Chris, you may win points for an extra recept or they may get mad that you cut two holes in their cabinets. You can't win!

Elecbob: Aren't there new special cords to prevent this from happening? (A magnet holds the cord connector to the fryer. If the cord is pulled, the magnet isn't strong enough to overturn the fryer but instead lets go.)

Brekaway cords what a great idea! They should be suppliedon all potentially dangerous appliances. Coffee makers, toasters, crock pots,etc.
I have installed outlets for peninsulas on the underside of countertops using wiremold. After the inspection I remove them. There is only a small hole in the drywall to patch. Is there any code issues if they are installed inside a cabinet with a door? If not, after inspection the outlet could be replaced with a blank cover.
Bob

Here in NJ if you or the homeowner doesn't want to follow the NEC you can ask for a variation to the code. This will allow the AHJ to forgo some of the code but it will also take the resposabilty away from them. For example, you don't want a receptacle on the island. The homeowner who has small children can ask for relif from the code, they may have to put in extra receptacles on the countertop in order to by pass the code, but they don't have to worry about one on the island because of the safety of their children. Some AHJ's will give this, and some will not. You might have to ask the ahj in your area if he will allow such a thing.

Harold

What is this AHJ you refer to? I was an EC in Nevada for 25 years and I'm sure we have the same person/office just called something else.

Authority Having Jurisdiction, in Tennessee they are state inspectors from the Dept of Commerce and Insurance. In other states they are private contractors hired by the EC to inspect electrical work, and in some states they are nonexistant.

Harold,
Good point.
This past week I had a homeowner insist she did not want a receptacle in her peninsula.
The local inspector is permitting an additional receptacle in the wall at the start of the peninsula, instead.

Redsy,

After being a helper for 8 years and in my own business for 15 years I have seen a lot of people who don't want outlets on the island. I also knew/know many contracors who were sued for coffe pots falling on children and getting scalded. I also know it isn't the electrical contractor's (EC) fault that the code requires an outlet there. I have tons of arguments both pro and con about that outlet. At least here in NJ you can do something about it legally. A variation to the code will relieve the AHJ of responsability if the homeowner really doesn't want that outlet.

Harold

Would a pedestal-type receptacle {single duplex or back-to-back} be acceptable in this case, like http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-l-datasheet.asp?PN=SCP3092I ?
[Sorry—not current on kitchen requirements.]

Hmmmm, I like it...

Though I'm suspicious the interior decorator may have a problem with me drilling holes through the one-piece maple counter-top.

Bjarney. Wouldn't customers love one of these on a granite, marble or tiled counter top?
bob

U G L Y !

Ooops. Dumb Idea #1732. Right next to the microwave blender.

If you don't put the recptacle in the island, the argument by the AHJ becomes "now the homeowner will run a cord to the island which is an even bigger hazard."

I have an island in my kitchen and I just wonder why someone would NOT want an outlet on the island?

Scott

Scotts,

elecbob points out the only logical reason I can think of...

We could always drop some SOW and Daniel Woodheads from the ceiling!

Well the modern kitchen seems to try and replicate commerical kitchens, what with the growing popularity of "heavy duty" kitchen appliances and tools, as well as stainless steel, it's only the next step to have GFCI's hanging on SOW from the ceiling to the island ;P

I guess that I should add the recepticle in my kitchen island is in the side not the top. This may save many problems.
Scott

With the right core drill in the marble or slate top, what about a floor box with recessed duplex receptacle? [It wouldn't be subject to any more abuse than with a floor polisher on terrazzo, right?]

I think there is a rule prohibiting face up receptacles in counter tops.

scott,

See 406.4(E).

So noted, guys...thanks. I'm off to the substation where I won't bother anyone for awhile. ;-)

—Bjarn

p.s.: Go Safely Tonite!

Bjarney: You mentioned drilling into the countertop... A friend of mine just moved in down the street. He has a beautiful countertop with an "under the counter" sink. The knucklehead who originally installed it used only adhesive (no clamps, or whatever the best method of installation would be) to attach the sink to the underside of the counter. The drain goes to PVC pipe. Cr-a-a-c-k goes the pipe, down goes the sink.

The plumber said he would use lumber to temporarily hold the sink in place, but he was not going to touch the countertop with a drill--my pal needs to hire somebody else to do that work because the plumber doesn't want to be liable for cracking the countertop material (smart guy).

The worst part of this was that the sink is in the basement, sort of a bar setup, and was tied into the sanitary sewer line rather than the storm sewer line. There had been a blockage in the sanitary line and that's what made the sink fill up with the backed up water, being the lowest point in the house. I was there helping to clean up and before I got started, something told me to put on one of my disposable Tyvek suits. I'm glad I did...

[This message has been edited by ThinkGood (edited 01-01-2003).]

I love kitchens!?

See the CODE!

Definitely no "face-up" locations allowed in kitchens & baths,hate to see the fluids running down the openings.

What does the stamped print indicate as far as how many side openings? If it shows one and the AHJ doesn't object, then it gets one. If the H.O. wants two, one on each side then they get what they pay for.

And as typical cabs. go, there is always plenty of room to slip these openings in!

All of the custom homes I do are in EMT, I always load the island/penninsula recpts. from a counter GFI so a duplex will fit into a gangable with room to spare. All recpts. are in pipe inside the cabs., this is not so easy to keep room and looking nice and pretty.
I always let the GC deal with adjusting the shelves around the pipe, cutting the openings in the cabs., I try to let the GC do it to save me time, and any potential damage is their responsibility.

As far as the dish and compactor, shoot a stub into the area under the sink where all the plumbing is. If the loads on the two won't be too much for one 20A circuit, put them on together.
I always install a dishwasher disconnect under the sink for service. Dish is typically hardwired, not set-up with a plug.
Yet, in the circumstance for your case, a duplex under the sink, split or not for two circuits or one would kill two birds with one stone. And if there ends up being a disposal, switch tucked inside cab., or together with side duplex. The j-box under cab. gives a lot of options.

Unless modified by Ordinance ( for a municipality or the State if State mandated,
not to install an outlet would be a violation.

Why can't the occupant decide when an outlet is safe to use for these countertop installations?

If you have toddlers about, DON'T USE THEM .

The next owner may want them and the code requirements are minimum.

ElecBob,

Isn't knowingly removing a required component in an inspected installation defrauding the owner of a building and jeopardizing the quality of workmanship of the contractors involved ?

I've heard that a contractor was installing AFCI's then after the inspection, replaced the AFCI CB's with regular CB's, I suppose selling them to the next customer.

Same AFCI CB inspected in many different dwellings ?????

I smell deceit and fraud.

I wonder who would be the culprit if a fire did happen and Forensic proved the AFCI had been removed from the circuit that started the fire ?

Many good points have been brought up here.
In 3 out of 3 cases where I have removed the installed outlet after inspection, the owner did not want the outlet and they were upset that the code required the outlet. "Hey, I didn't write the code lady so back off while I cut a hole in your $1500 cabinet." They liked the Wiremold approach and they liked me for suggesting it. When I open my NEC book and a check falls out, I'l tell the customer there's no way around the code requirement.
Why the remark to me about AFCI's GWZ? What does deceit and fraud smell like?
Bob

Items such as recept placement (12' spacing in several types of rooms, 4' spacing on countertops, and ISLAND RECEPTS) are a strange part of the code.

They are clearly requirments for spec homes.

But for homes where the owner is known, they are more perscriptive than required. If a home owner does not want an island recept, they do should not have one.

If you set the island on top of the floor or in a recess in the floor (without fastening in place), then the island is not part of the house it is a table and does not need a recept.

I like the drop-cord idea; then I stared thinking: what if there were a stove/hood on the island, rather than a sink. Would receptacles on the side of the hood work?
Oops! I almost forgot the 18" rule, and the short cords on kitchen appliances.
Wait a minute- if they make pop-up range hoods, why can't they make pop-up receptacles?
Or, maybe use an office-furniture style
cord pass-through, to a receptacle mounted inside the cabinets?
I'm looking for ideas here....