I'll let these pix speak for themselves:

(for the time being...)

#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


#6


#7


<edited to number the pix>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-12-2002).]

Two more:

#8


#9


<edited to number the pix>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-12-2002).]

A good lesson for Jimmy on how not to wire a house. You can appreciate quality work when you see enough shoddy work. How much of it are you getting to fix. Most of it I hope.

i can imagine the proverbial 'rock & hard place' could exist here walking into a job bettween a lawyer & inspector.......

Did he flag himself?

As I've said before, just having a license or certification doesn't mean a thing.

One thing that I'm really concerned about is the green insulated wire connected at the top of the left hand neutral/ground bus. Please tell me that this is not the equipment ground of a feeder supplying this panel. I know that if it is you'll disconnect the metal bar that connects both busbars together and get the noodles connected in the right place.

At least he didn't throw away the bonding screw.

Tom

Tom,
Maybe it's because I haven't had my coffee yet. But I don't understand your post. Could you please elaborate.

Also, could someone tell me why there are four breakers across the top of this panel?

Tom,
Where do you see the bonding screw?
Pearl,
The 4 breakers are handle tied to provide a service disconnect.
Chris

Chris Rudolph posted 12-11-2002 10:24 AM
Tom,
Where do you see the bonding screw?
SNIP
Chris

Chris
It is near the bottom on the left hand buss bar.
--
Tom

Tom,
Got off my laptop and looked again with my desktop and sure enough there it is as you said.It even shows up green.
Thanks for the reply
Chris

Beautiful....just beautiful. I think most first year apprentices could wire better than this.

There's really not much to say about this other than the obvious: this is complete garbage!

66, with inspectors like this, I can see why most of your jobs are an uphill battle.

What were you called in to do at this nightmare, by the way?

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 12-11-2002).]

Just noticed something. In the 3rd pic down, you gotta love those tool shed hooks supporting all the romex!

UL Listed for 1 shovel or 1 rake, or an entire bundle of cables.

Chris, Why would anyone build a panel that uses 4 breakers as a main disconnect? We don't have those here, or I've never seen one before.

Even the guys who did that bank sign did not use duct tape. This "inspector" did. Sad.
Scott

Hey Virg:
Getting between an "inspector" and a lawyer??
I hapo the lawyer is better at his "trade" the the inspector!
Oh, maybe he's a plumbing, building, or Fire Inspector???
If he is in fact an "Electrical Inspector" then I can see why the stuff you post on ECN can happen!

Everything looking OK with you?????
John

I'm trying really hard but I can't find anything terribly wrong with the panel other than two homeline breakers in GE panel.. The rest is poor workmanship. If this is how he works with what you can see imagine what he does with what you can't. Virgil, is this a job you really want to get involved with?

No white phase tape to identify the neutral in the panel, and I can't see a neutral bus bonding screw either. It does look like 2 SqD homeline breakers in there, too.

Lotsa NM bundled together (presumably without derating). Missing staples everywhere. Generally sloppy workmanship.

If you look really carefully, there are Cutler Hammer BR's in the panel too.

But, that is the least of the problems at this place.

While we're ripping this place apart, does anyone that knows about plumbing have any opinions about the drain pipes?

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 12-11-2002).]

Now that you mention it that plumbing clean out in the 6th picture is rather high. Can you imagine being the plumber running a snake down there at face level. Not very pleasant.
Scott

NJwirenut,
It looks as if the neutral has a white stripe.
Chris

joe20, CTwireman,
I haven't the permission to fix anything, yet. I was there to install a transfer switch and cord to a generator. The pix were taken before I started, so now the lines and loads of the transfer switch unit are crowding the panel.

sparky, yup, you know it! Rock and a hard place, indeed! But there's more to this story... (in a minute)

Redsy, LOL! Well, he obviously had the knowledge to flag himself, he was the first IAEI certified inspector for electrical services required by the PoCo in this area.

Tom, you nailed it! This 200A 4 wire feeder comes from a disconnect that is paired with another panel and disconnect to a 320A meterbase. The EGC and Neutral need to be seperated here, and everything on the service end of thigs in pic #1 is OK except he (they) neglected to remove the bonding bar between the busses. Then, in turn, someone made up all the EGCs and neutrals in the branch circuits with disregard to which bus they were on.

The bus bonding-bar needs removed and the EGCs need to go on the left and noodles on the right.

Everyone,
To better my arguments to have this (pic #1) corrected, what safety issues are compromised here?

Pearlfish, Chris is correct, this is a standard GE 200A 2 Pole Main CB. The individual breakers are really 100A, but two parallel per side for 200A per leg. Look closer at the bus feed below the Main CB.

John (Hotline1), Certified IAEI... The same one that likes to retorque my terminals.

(Things are looking up, I'll elaborate in another post...)

ElectricmanScott, Actually, this may have some interesting financial incentives...

NJWirenut, yes there is a white stripe (not visible in pic) but I generally add tape anyway, just to be sure.

Everyone, Thanks for all the input.

The lawyer had called me in for work at his office, and then for the transfer switch. He had some recepts that didn't work (GFCI tripped) and another that didn't work that I ended up disconnecting on the load side (nail in cable?). Plus, the a ceiling fan cable must have been pierced because the light doesn't work, but the fan does.

To make a long story short, even after explaning (to a lawyer, no less!) that this house was new enough to still be under warranty, and all of this should be fixed free of charge, he looked me in the eye and said he'd rather pay me to fix it than have the "inspector" come back.

Wow!

Opinions and comments?





[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-11-2002).]

Oh, so this is a subpanel we are looking at?

Is there no end to the madness???

Seems to me the green wire isn't a problem, it's just the grounding conductor that goes to the water pipe/grounding rods for the panel, the neutral just isn't re-identified, i don't see a white stripe, just the lettering identifying the cable type.

I don't understand the 4 breakers, it looks like they wouldn't trip because the load is flowing through two instead of one, also you could potentially turn off only one leg of service here. It's pretty odd, what kind of panel is this anyways??

Did someone say "Financial incentives".....

Those four breakers are 2 -100A breakers on each leg. (ie. 200A main disconnect) They are tested as such by a NRTL organization.

This "doubeling-up" is not to be done in the field.

As for the NEUTRAL vs the EGC bus it is the same bus as can be seen at the bottom end(s) of the bus being tied together.

Sparky,

OWW! Putting inspectors in the same class as lawyers. GESH! I wouldn't want to get down to their level. As GWZ said, those main breakers are allowed. Also Cut-Ham type BR breakers might be allowed for that panel. One thing that I see, is there a disconnect (lockable?) for that well pump? I see they don't believe in strapping the wires running to the well either.

Harold

66wv
Quote
he looked me in the eye and said he'd rather pay me to fix it than have the "inspector" come back.

This shows that he trusts you and would rather get it done right. I am assuming since he is a lawyer that he can afford to get it done right and not spend extra money on nickel and dime stuff that would probabaly equal or exceed your costs.

I learned a long time ago that it is often time to cut the cord with someone with bad performance. Sure you can fight them and they will eventually perform at an adequate standard. But it is better to pay for good working practices then fight someone for adequate practices.
Scott

Peter, Yup, sorry I didn't clarify before, I thought the 4-wire would give that way...


To answer a rhetorical question: Yes, there is no end to the madness (yes, we have no bananas?).

Zack, yes, Gwz is correct, the "bus bar" connects the two, but can't be removed until (half) the branch circuit EGCs and noodles are put onto the proper busses.

Harold, no well-pump disco.

Loverly, ain't it!



Scotts, Electricmanscott,

Seems to be what's happening! And this guy is very influentual, and I may even get some good referrals from him! (Hopefully) He owns an entire side of a block in downtown Lewisburg, rents it all out as offices. He may have even more real estate. Impressing this guy can only bring good things!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-11-2002).]

Two tight shots of the panel to help clarify some Q's:

#10


#11


<edited to number the pix>

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-12-2002).]

Question:

In pix 2 through 9, how does one get past ducts and return air spaces and still comply with 334.15(C)?

Running boards as per 334.15(A)?

In pic #4, the diagonal cut, can one place running boards at angles to the framing members (saving rerouting the cable)?

I tend to think that a drop ceiling is/was possibly planned... that would help some of this make a little more sense, like the extra cable on the lights (no Jct box with 6' BX whip?)...

Would a drop ceiling make the NM Cable OK as is? (Becomes a "finished" ceiling...)

Thanks in advance,

-Virgil

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-12-2002).]

On a positive note, the ground is up on the ivory receptacle with the metal cover in pic
#7.

stamcon says:
On a positive note, the ground is up on the ivory receptacle with the metal cover in pic #7.

That pic is probably upside-down ;-)

It's true that most of the pictures show some violations. It's good to be prepared to cite the specific rule(s) that may apply.



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 12-22-2002).]

Do some areas require the Neutral bus and the Equipment Grounding bus in the SERVICE EQUIPMENT be separate bus's ?

I am thinking of the typical residential service.

While we are attacking the panel, the double breaker on the right has a white wire that isn't reidentified as hot.

In the closeup of the lower left, it looks like the second hole up from the green bonding screw has both a neutral and ground on one screw. It's hard to see but the top one on that bar may also be doubled-up.

Joe
The man is in an impossible position. He will have to face this inspector again and again and he simply can't afford a fight with him. I don't know what credentials are required to comment on the obvious code violations to be found in those photographs.
--
Tom

Joe T.,

I'd be quite happy to, but the home owner (lawyer) is so disgusted with him that he doesn't ever want him back, even for free!.

This particular Inspector already knows my credentials (and has actually asked me for advice on occassion). As far as the homeowner (and myself) are concerned, my credentials aren't in question here.


I'm in the process of readying a report complete with NEC quotes. I was hoping for the vast input from ECN first, and didn't want to spoil any fun with my own answers.
I didn't see flames here...

I have excitedly invited him to ECN many months ago (wrote the URL on the back of a business card), but he's not the type to be inclined to be interested.


Wouldn't I open ECN and myself up to slander lawsuit at that point?!?!



I don't have his email address, and I did several searches for it. I'm unaware of the fine line that seperates this thread from your Violations Photos Section. Considering the ubsurdity of the situation, I think we all remained gentlemen here.

If the Webmaster gives his blessing on me posting his name and address, I'll do it, but only until then.

Is it within "the listing" of the equipment to remove the bar to seperate the neutral and eg bar? Joe, I am unsure what you mean by stop bashing this guy. It is plain to everyone here that this work stinks and why should we not comment on it? Perhaps the comments regard some things that may be trivial but I see nothing but a good discussion here.

GWZ,

Depends on whether or not there is a disconnect. There is in this case, with a four-wire feeder.

Electricmanscott,

Yes, it is in the instructions to remove the bar if it is used as a sub-panel, and to keep the bar if it is service equipment. That way, no extra ground bus is required to purchase. Panel is a GE TM4020CCU 200A 40 space indoor 120/240V.

(I'd been buying ground busses for a couple years before I actually read the instructions to find out!)

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-12-2002).]

Virgil,
from a tradesmans view, this thread could critique these shots for some time

from an contractors point of view, do you really want a salvage job here?

Picture #1:

The non-GE circuit breakers violate the manufacturer's warranty, but may not be a listing violation. If it is, I would cite 110.3(B).

110.12 would be a stretch, but a missing 3/4" KO (not visible in pic) violated 110.12(A).

200.6(B) is violated by the neutral with only one white (and barely visible) stripe.

The EGC and Neutral electrically connected after the first bond creates a parallel path for the neutral current violating 250.6(A), 310.4, and 250.142(B).

This would be speculative, but 110.3(B) is probably violated because I will bet any amount of money that he doesn't own or use a torque wrench or torque screwdriver. I showed him mine once, and explained why I had them, and he said that I "think too much" and shook his head in a patronizing manner.

Anyone care to add?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-13-2002).]

That's what I get for not looking at the close-up picture. The green wire is in with the feeders, supposely making this a sub-panel.

Have seen installations where a green wire has been in parallel with the grounded conductor between the meter enclosure and the Main disconnect ( panelboard) on non-metallic raceway systems. Yes I know it is a violation.

Picture #2:

334.30 would be a violation if the 4.5' is "as measured along the length of the cable". I can't remember where I read the last quoted part, so this may be a moot point.

However, 334.30(B)(2) is violated as well as 334.15(C).

Picture #3:

310.15(B)(2)(a) is violated due to bundling of the cables, as well as 334.15(C).

Picture #4:
More 334.15(C) violations and this one crosses the 110.12 line too.

Picture #5:
334.15(B) for physical protection and/or 334.30 and 310.11(C) for means of support.

Picture #6:
More of #5 with 334.30 and 110.12 violated with the run of NMB Cable in the upper left hand corner of the picture.

Picture #7:
Another 334.15(B) and 334.30 violation.

Picture #8:
More bundling, 310.15(B)(2)(a) and 334.15(C).

Picture #9:
More 310.15(B)(2)(a), 334.15(C) and 334.30.

If you look at the local code, there are no violations. The AHJ and his inspectors has the right to approve any items he wishes.

I see several items that appear to be not "to code." Some of them don't affect safety at all. All in all the instalation may meet the standard of a reasonable level of safety.

I would not do finish work at the level it appears to have been done, but my work in progress has looked much worse.

George,
there are some no-no's here that 90.4 would not cover ,that most compitent trademan would consider.

remember, the 'code book' swings both ways.

sorry, any defense here would be a weak one.

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[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 12-22-2002).]

sparky66wv

Please don't take any of my comments as personal. I was only calling attention to a blank profile where some choose to make remarks about something they have no experience with. I agree with many replies here, but not all, and as far as my space for violations I will always support the negative comments when possible and ask that the person who sent the image follow up.

Your "inspector" and his method of installation may be questionable and in violation of the code. So how can we submit a complaint?

It sounds like 66 has it handled, He has an owner that is willing to fix things and pay for the fixes. Like I said in an earlier post sometimes it is not worth it to fight for marginal performance and just pay for good performance. I have found this out through the years with many different types of contractors. The only question I have is if 66 were to rewire this house would he have to pull a permit and have the same inspector inspect the rewire. That could be a sticky situation.
Scott

The only inspections in my area are for the PoCo (Services only) and in the City of Lewisburg (Building Inspector, not IAEI...)

This house is in a rural area, hence, no inspections except for the PoCo.

This inspector is an Electrical Contractor first and foremost, and doesn't like doing inspection work (unless it's for me, 'cuz I'm an easy $75) and he is one of about 4 or 5 that I can choose from. My favorite inspector, not this guy, is moving away (and wants me to get my certs...)

I should go take the IAEI tests, but now that I have a helper, and I can't legally let him work alone (a little conflict of interest there) it wouldn't be cost effective for me to pull off a job to go do an inspection.

I guess that extra credential wouldn't hurt even if I never used it...

However, I would LOVE to get mandatory electrical inspections at all levels here...

Joe,

No problem, since I was the only person who knew who this guy is, I thought you were speaking directly to me.


I wish I knew how to voice my opinion to the powers that be. I can post pics and b!tch and moan, but I honestly don't now what to do from here besides continuing to judge my own work on a much higher standard and not expect much from anyone else (besides Jimmy).

I learned from a past experience that even the Local Fire Marshall Deputies are too ignorant to back me up. And politics plays a big part, this EC/Inspector has been in business along time, is really a nice guy, and is a deacon in the church, etc.

I guess I'm just really disappointed in his work.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

-Virgil

Joe,
do you do any per diem? i can throw in some maple suyrup here......

Sparky:

I would like shrimp and spicy lobster sauce instead, what's on your mind?

just a little justice Joe

Sparky,

Just a thought here, was any of this work done AFTER the inspector gave his final inspection? Maybe a homeowner installed some extra circuits AFTER a final inspection? Not trying to defend anyone, just a question. I truely believe in a state licesening for contractors and a state run electrical inspectors program. This way each town would have jurisdiction over who does the inspections in their town. Be it a part time employee or a third party inspector. I beliebe it is more fair this way. I guess I am just use to the way NJ does it.

Harold

a very fair observation Harold, at first glance one is not impressed, yet there may be extenuating circumstances involved.

i see the whole deal as one of immaculant diplomacy, which i just don't have 24/7

Harold, yes, you make good points, but I can assure you that it is not in this case.

1) There is no inspections (except for the service).

2) The lawyer gave every indication that only one EC did the work, and he moved in the house two months ago.

But, yes, not having my perspective on this, I could see where you would have concern.

However,

Looks like I won't fix any of it, including the panel.

I spoke to one of the carpenters on the job (a good friend of mine) and he said:

"...in his defense, they were changing things every day on him, he'd have to rip stuff out everyday and practically start over. The owner just didn't make up his mind on anything."

Which is normal for around here, heck, I worked a good eight years before I saw my first set of plans on any job.

Plus, the HVAC and Well-Pump circuits could have been installed by their respective vendors.

So, what excuses are "good enough"?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 12-14-2002).]

On the other side of the coin (no pix to prove it) there were many instances of wall spaces that did not have receptacles at all, let alone spaced no more that 12 feet apart. That's hard for a homeowner or second contractor to "re-do", especially in a log home.

Knowing this guy charges about $3 per sq ft, I'd say he made $18,000 on this house with about $2000 in materials. I'd spend double that.

Sparky,

My condolences to your state, because if there were inspections there might not be problems like this. I grew up here in NJ and I was doing electrical work since 1975 and have always had to worry about electrical inspections. When the inspector came out and saw that something was wrong, then I had to go back and correct it. ( At no additional charge I might add.) The state of NJ says right on every permit that they issue, that Final payment is not to be made until all permits are finaled out. I feel that if inspections were the rule, then contractors and DIY's would have to do the work as per the NEC. On the other hand, I have seen where the inspector becomes a power hungry ogre and feels that everything has to meet HIS code. That is BS, and I didn't stand for it as a contractor and as an inspector.

Harold

sparky66wv ---

I am just an engineer. I learned a long time ago that I can prove my work is reasonably safe (the code standard), but that I cannot prove anyones work is not reasonably safe.

The fact that noone else is willing to take action against this person is prima facia proof that his work is reasonably safe. (Saying it is not is just asking for a libel suit.)

I agree the work is appears to be not to the perscriptive code, but that is not the question.

interesting that some should worry about an inspection while some worry for lack of it, such an inequitable trade aren't we?

George,
i would agree that 'safety' is a relative term, and that the NEC does have some of what i would say is minor infractions at best, yet it poses itself as a minimum standard.
if that's all Mr. Lawyer wishes to solicit, s/he is free to make his/her decisions from there.

i have done this myself in tenements, simply listed the no-no's, what they do from there is thier biz.

Sparky,

When I was in business and found problems on the job, I would list them on my bill. For example, I would put a note on the bottom of my bill, that we found such and such wrong, which is in violation of the NEC. I would also make note that it should be corrected. This way if something did go wrong, I could prove that I notified the customer of the violation. My accountant and I figure that if the customer took the time to read my bill, then they would have seen my notice of the violation. Who knows if it paid off?

Harold

Harold,
that is exactly what the inspectors of tenure have told me to do here, as a CYA.

i just don't have the luxury of thier presence due to the laws & staffing here, so it creates something of a diplomatic experience for me.

which i was not taught in my apprenticeship...

Looking at the panel bottom right, it
looks like 3 romex cables passing thru
only one clamp. Is that allowed? I
didn't think it would be.

Virgil:
Had to jump in now....
Quality of workmanship!
Pride in what you do!

Your work (what you have posted here)shows it.

The pics you posted for this house don't.

"Libel"??? Guess so, with a good lawyer.
Careful my friend.

Ruffle someones feathers? you bet!
John

um why is there a white wire in the dual breaker on the righ side in picture #1?

Isn't it only black and red hot while white is neutral? But if you use white as hot your suppose to mark it black? And I'm not even an electrican.