I know that these low voltage (LV) hockey puck light fixtures have been around for awile. I also know that the wiring of them have been argued about too. My question is, does the splice where the NM wire attaches to the flying lead of the LV light have to be accesible? Is there a code section that says yes? or no? How many times have you seen where the splice is made, then tucked back into the wall, and then have the wall sealed with either grout or a silicone. Then if/when you have to go and change lights later on, you have to cut open the wall to remove the splice. (Or maybe they don't remove the old splice, but just add a new splice on the outside.) Any comments?

Harold

Harold;
I've had a few installations of the hockey puck light and agree with you that it's not a very good application. I don't know how the lobbyist of this fixture managed to get through UL. It's been a few years since installing one, what I did is made the owner install a back plate out of wood inside his cabinet because I refused to burry it on my license. Not sure if this helps you.

We usually try to have the cabinet maker install a double bottom on the cabinets with a 1/2" space between the layers to run the low voltage cables and make the connections in. This way you can remove the fixtures and get to any of the connections.

I do have a problem with these new puck lights that Home Depot is selling. They no longer have transformers and are designed to connected directly to 120V. I have had several customers hand them to me to install and I quickly refuse. Why would UL list such a thing? I guess if you have enough money you can get anything listed.

Curt

[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 11-29-2002).]

When I have a customer who wants those puck light installed, I tell them that a splice box must be installed. Then we discuss where the box will be. Most of the time they do not want to see another box cover on the wall. Then they usually decide the try something else.
I do not care if an item is UL listed, If I do not believe it will be a safe installation, it is better to not put it in.

I hate these lights but they are legal and they are only 12 volts. Whats the problem?

Scott, the new ones that are out now are 110/120v. They look like the low voltage ones except for the cord.

I have seen the 120v ones and there are still 12v units also. All are a pain in the behind. I will only use them if the homeowner is not willing to go with my recomendations. <confesion> I've run #12 lamp cord and I use crimp on butt splices accesible under the cabinet. When I supply fixtures I use Kichler Cabinet Lighting System. Having installed thousands of UNDERCABINET lights (drives me crazy when people say "undercounter") I find these are by far the easiest to install and the price is reasonable as well. www.kichler.com

I use crimp on butt splices from the NM-B to the 10 ga. wire tucked under the cabinet. If I need to cover the splices I use a Wiremold box at 3/4" deep with a blank plate.

As my NM-B leads from the wall are at 12V I don't see a problem with the splices being just tucked up behind the reveal of the cabinet.

Electricmanscott,
How does the Kichler compare to the Seagull brand?

Jim I haven't used the seagull brand so I can't compare. I have used Alkco and other local home center brands and Kichler is better and VERY fast and easy to install.

i guess i can't see the original Q here , is the UC arrangement fed via regular nm from an x-former?

if so, is this intentional?, or an 11th hour change?

last job i did a switched receptacle was installed above the cabinets , so as not to view the x-former that served the UC lighting.

a savey cabinetmaker should know what a 'lightbar' is when requested, the fish spaces down can be predetermined and/or may exist already.

Sorry Scott,

Under cabinet light would be the correct term. The installation has a transformer in the basement, and NM-b wire run through the wall. But the splice to the LV light fixture is spliced and pushed inside the wall, and the tile is grouted. So, I can't see the splice. I don't know what kind of a splice it is. It might be soldered?, wirenut?, crimp? Don't know, can't see. Not sure if this is a proper wiring job. My question would be, Does the splice have to be visable to make it a proper wiring job? Section 411 of the NEC doesn't say anything about it. Should the job pass or fail?

HArold

Harold:
IMHO, a "red" sticker would solve the problem
Splices have to be accessable.......
Now we'll see the arguments liven up.

An "accessable splice" discussion with the offending EC should prevent this problem in the future.
John

What about 400.8 and 400.9? Also 411.4 does say you cannot run thru a building wall.
I do not know of any of these puck lites that have a long enougn cord not to have a splice somewhere.

How does article 400 apply to this? 411 Mentions nothing about splices whatsoever. Reference to accesible splices on low voltage systems? The correct wiring method was used in the wall. The system only operates at 12 volts. I see your point about wanting to see the splices but also the Ec was probably thinking he was doing a nice job for the homeowner by hiding the splices. Did you ask what he did? Are you comfortable with his work? If so I really don't see an issue here.

I think this a golden example of the baloney marketed falling in our trades lap.

In a perfect world, there would be some sort of feedback, rating or other group communicado from the trenches to UL, CSPC, or similar consumer report from us

I use a lot of the Seagull ambient LV lighting. A #10 zip cord snaps into a low profile track and I put a 2 bulb fixture with 2 5 watt bulbs at each end and about every 12 inches. Customers love it!
Some notes: The zip cord is not UL rated so you cannot run it inside walls and a connection to NM cable is necessary.I use crimps and a telephone jack box with the guts removed. Rather than paying $100+ for their xfmr. I sometimes use the $39 151 watt xfmr. that HD carries. That's my input on over counter lighting.
Bob

Electricmanscott,

The problem here is that no one called for a rough inspection. There was only a final inspection called for. The electrican is new to me, so I have never seen his work. It might be OK, but I didn't see anything. I see NM wire in the basement, (No enclosure for the transformer or splices. low voltage or high voltage connections) The NM goes into the wall, (I guess, everthing is run OK.)

Hotline 1,

A red sticker is easy to give the contractor, however if I have to back it up, I would need a code section. I can use sec. 411 of the NEC to make sure the right wire is used. How about 300-15 (a) (1999) NEC? That says that nonmaetallic sheath cable, or other cables.. need a box or enclosure.

Harold

Hello Harold...
Back at your favorite topic I see!
OK, here's my 2 cents to you question ('02 Code).
411.4 requires a Chapter 3 wiring method where the under 30 volt lighting system is extended thru a building wall. Nonmetallic sheathed cable would seem to be acceptable.
300.15 (revised) wording requires a box or conduit body to be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, junction point, termination point (call it what you like)if the wiring method is nonmetallic sheathed cable.
No wiggle room here.

Are the lights equipped with flexible cord?? 400.8 says it cannot pass thru holes in walls, 400.10 says the must be strain relief at joints, 400.14 says bushings or fittings are required where it passes thru holes in covers, outlet boxes or similar enclosure.
Need I go on??

Take care, J.

Harold:
Seems like someone beat me to the response.
Well said JES!
I didn't post the NEC articles when I posted the "red sticker" reply, 'cause it was a long day...

If you only did a "final" did you note "Visual" on the TECH Card??? CYA!
John

John and John,

Well I will let you know how I make out. Tommorrow 12/5 I have to go back for a "final" inspection. Yes, I will put down on the inspection card that a visual is the only thing that I will inspect. I will have some questions about the installation for the contractor, (I think that the contractor will be there.) I also will ask again about the splice between the NM wire in the wall and the low voltage wire from the light fixture. We shall see.

Harold