Does anyone know if latex paint has a deleterious effect on copper wires? How about on the insulation? Does it violate sec. 310-9 of the NEC?

a fair Q harold. and there's much worse than latex out there.

a quick cross ref of 310.9 to T310.13 would conclude little here, not that most painter's would care.....

Harold:

I think that 310.9 is clear and gives some reason to be concerned.

It may be necessary to call attention to the following NEC rule, that you as the AHJ can enforce.

"110.12(C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.

Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.

There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating."

However, the permission to use paint to identify the grounded conductor still can be found in the code under 200.7(C)

"Circuits of 50 Volts or More.

The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).

(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.

(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.

In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible."

Another example, and possible conflicting statement in the 2002 NECH Commentary is where they still recommend "taping and painting" would seem to be a violation because of the rule in the exception here to 230.54(B)

Exception: Type SE cable shall be permitted to be formed in a gooseneck and taped with a self-sealing weather-resistant thermoplastic.

Personally, I think paint is sloppy and in the electrical industry there are better ways to identify the grounded conductor without using paint!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 10-07-2002).]

Has anyone ever seen a problem that could be attributed to paint on wire insulation, or on a cable jacket.

I haven't, in fifty years in the industry.

Most paints are insulating materials, and must be removed, from a box, for example, in order to make a conducting connection.

Ed

Let me guess...

New residential, overspray into the boxes?

Redsy,

Don't those little tiny balls of paint on the panelboard bus bars allow the stab-on jaws of CB's slip onto the bus easier?

You guys figured me out way too quick again. Yes, overspray on a big condo job. NO, it wasn't on the inside of any panel. Yes, there is overspray on the wires inside the box. However my concern gets a little more specific. There are traces of overspray on the wires inside of the boxes which then go into the pin backs of the switches and receptacles. I know that I am going to hear a lot of guys yell about how they hate pinback devices. However if the manufacture of the device allows it, and it is UL approved then it must pass code. My question concerns are that the contractor "claims", that once you use the pin back, the device scraps the paint off of the wire, and therefore there is no real problem with "traces" of overspray on the conductor.
Joe, The internal parts are not damaged by the overspray, and is a little laytex paint a contaminent? Now you should know me by now, I am not trying to be difficult, I just want to be fair to all parties concerned. The amount of paint on the wires is a little at best. It is not like the bare conductor was dipped in paint and then left to dry. Problem is how little is too much? P.S. we are talking about over 14 buildings with 5-9 2 story apt. in each building.

Caper

Caper

If ya got green paint, the overspray can land on the EGC, but will have to be cleaned from the other conductors. If it is white, and it usually is, (or grey) then the paint should be scraped from all but the neutral, any other color, and you can leave the paint on the hots, but it must be scraped from the EGC and Neutral.

Otherwise it is mis-identification of conductors.

That's the way I see it.

Harold, my only comment on the harmful aspect, is that latex paint is required on exposed ABS and PVC plumbing pipes for UV protection. I know you are asking about wire insulation and not pipe. I know it can cause corrosion on copper pipe(or help promote the corrosion).

I just spent 2 hours finding a black (hot) #12 wire than had been wire nutted together with the white (neutral wires in a box. I couldn't find power to a bathroom light circuit. I am convinced painters take delight in covering wires with paint. From here on out I am masking off all wires in boxes prior to painting. Guess who's going to pay for my time.
bob

Harold:

I am sure you would have a problem with an installation that looked like this one! It is a good reason why we have 110.12(C) in the code.



Photo courtesty: www.codecheck.com

Two things:
Joe:
Looks like someone "ticked-off" the painters!

ElectricBob:
I believe that Arlington makes an inexpensive plastic "cover" that you can snap into your boxes to keep the wire clean. I saw it in EC, or CEE, or IAEI mag. (We don't do houses, and the comm painters are "Neat freaks", so we're lucky.
John

Paisley or Mezzotint? Picasso or Mondrian?

Joe,

That picture is great. Glad my problem doesn't look like this one. My problem "Might" turn into a lawsuit. I am not sure just yet. Someone in a condo was mad about everything in the condo. ( Light fixture not centered over table. Telco jack in wrong spot. Needs another 3 way switch. etc.) Some of the things are not a NEC violation, however this person complained that light fixtures weren't grounded, and that there was paint on the wires. Well on a final inspection, Inspectors don't carry ladders around with them in order to drop down light fixtures to see if they are grounded. There is a "qualified" person running the job. ( Lic. elec. cont.) An inspector can remove plates from a site and check into the boxes, but not in every one. The overspray was there, but you could move wires around and still figure out which is white, black, red. Plus you could scrape off the paint, (If you tried) Another question was, Does the pin back device scrape the paint off as you insert the wire into the device? The questions are not trying to defend either the homeowner who is questioning things, nor trying to protect the electrical contractor. As long as everything meets the intent of the code, is safe, and isn't a shock hazard. Isn't that what inspectors are suppose to do?

Harold:
The "back-wire" on devices MAY remove some of the paint. Guess the EC had them stripped?
That's a question for Leviton, Eagle, etc.

IMHO, the EC should have re-stripped (???) the conductors if they had paint on the ends.
"Overspray" is not an NEC violation, unless the paint can cause damage to the conductor insulation.

Your other points:
Fixture grounding?; No, I don't carry a ladder on inspections either, and can't say I know of any inspector that does 'round here. Wouldn't be enough hours in the day if dropping fixtures. Catch one of the 'lectricians with a ladder, or if there's one "on site", I "pop" a few for a look-see.

We try for "quality" not "quantity" inspections, the "boss" looks for an average of 15 a day. (Rough, Final, CCO, Resi, Comm, Ind.; it don't matter).

John

Harold,
'painters' , as well as 'mudders & tapers' are always filling out boxes with thier unwanted presence.

i just get my trusty T-5's out and clean what has to be terminated....

John,

I have to agree with you too. As an AHJ, we are there to "Verify" that the work is being done correctly. We are not there to "Certify" the work. If I was to Certify the work, then I would have to be there the whole time the job is going on, be on their payroll, and run the damn job myself. I would hope amd rely on the EC on the job who does have the license, that HE is watching his people to make sure that they are doing the work as per the NEC. By The Way, I read the new ICC Mech code and receptacles and lights on the roof for HVAC equip., is not in there. I guess that lights on roofs for HVAC would then become a utility (gas co.) requirment. NOT NEC or ICC Mech. code.

Sparky,

You and I would be the type of contractors who would try and clean off any/all paint on the wires before installing devices. However some contractors might not so fussy. My question gets to be very particular, when I ask the question about the paint. A law suit might come about ( I doubt it though) but who is to say how much paint is too much? As John stated, I guess that only the manufacture of the device would be the person who would dertermine "How much paint, is too much" for his device.

Harold:
Not to beat a dead horse, but....
From reading your resposes to the continuing thread, I have a question...
Is the "bottom line" the fact that there is paint on the stripped conductors where they are terminated onto the devices?? (Either stabbed or screwed).
If that's the case, then it's sloppy workmanship, right???
John

John,

The bottom line is that the contractor feels that there is not enough paint on the wire to be of any concern. On the other hand, a homeowner saw paint on the wires inside of the box and complained to the DCA. My boss (Construction Official) sent me out to investigate. I wrote a report very cut and dry, telling of what I just saw. Nothing more and nothing less. My boss wants me to close out this situation, but I feel an expert (Manufactures device engineer, or a paint manufactures engineer) should be the one to make that determination. I feel the experts should fight it out in court with expert testimony.