Hi,
This is probably an old worn out item but I was wondering what the code says about 14AWG on a 20A circuit?

-regards

frodo

It basically says, NO.
Don

hi,
i guess i better clarify the situation. a bathroom is required to have a 20A circuit..you may also supply other outlets on that circuit that are in the bathroom...

so if you install a 14 AWG switchleg to feed the lights that would not be allowed right?

frodo

hi,
does 210.24 not allow a 14AWG tap that feeds lighting in a bathroom?

thanks

frodo

Frodo:
We do not "tap" 14 off of a 20 amp circuit.
There may or may not be "permission" to do it in the NEC, but we don't.

We do "bathroom" outlet, GFI, residential & commercial, as a 20 amp circuit.

HotLine1
John

hi,
i beleive it is permissible to tap a 20A branch circuit with #14 according to 210.19 A4 and 210.24.

this is a common practice.

if you take a 8 inch piece of #12 and connect that from the 20A branch circuit to a single pole switch then go from the load side of the switch to a ligting outlet with two or more fixtures using #14 that is totally legal.

it may also be allowed in oter sections of the code...

it would not be allowed on a cord and plug connected load

-regards

frodo



[This message has been edited by frodo (edited 09-03-2002).]

I think that your installation is a violation of 240.4. This is not a fixture whip or fixture wire. There is no permission in 210.19 to extend #14 protected at 20 amps from the switch to a light fixture. 210.24 says you must look at 210.19 for specific requirements.
Don

hi,
thanks for the reply don, but as i read 240.4 (E) this allows a tap using #14 from a #12.

the exception covers this situation...a bathroom requires a 20A circuit...if it feeds only a single bath then you can TAP the 20A circuit SAFELY using the rules as outlined in 210.19 (4) Exception No. 1 and table 210.24 which clearly allow this...to supply two or more outlets...not a RECEPTACLE but lighting outlets and exhuast fan..

i quote from the NEC HANDBOOK PAGE 87 Highlighted Area regarding 210.24

"Table 210.24 summarizes branch-circuit protection requirements of conductors, overcurrent protection, outlet DEVICES, maximum load, and permissible load where two or more outlets are supplied. If the branch circuit serves a fixture load and supplies two or more fixture outlets, 210.23 requires the BRANCH circuit to have a SPECIFIC ampere rating that is based on the rating of the overcurrent device, as stated in 210.3. Etc.

this rule applies more closely than anything in 240.4, but specifically covers BRANCH CIRCUITS and not TAPS...

the tap is the wire in the box nailed on the wall that feeds the DEVICE which is the switch, this device/switch feeds a LIGHT FIXTURE or LUMINAIRE...i dont see any problem here...am i missing something?

if it were me, i always use number 12 anyway...i dont even buy #14!...

an associate asked me because he got gigged by a BUILDING INSPECTOR who told him that he could not use #14 to tap from a 20A circuit..

i am still open to hear any further comments though

i had no doubt that it was a loaded question!!!

-regards

frodo



[This message has been edited by frodo (edited 09-03-2002).]

hi,
i will recommend that the tap be #12 from the branch circuit to the switch and #12 from the switch to the light fixtures...that sounds like the easiest way to settle the matter!!!

-regards

frodo

Your application does not appear to meet any of the requirements in Exception #1 to 210.19(A)(4). Requirements (a) through (e) place strict limits on the use of this exception. You might be able to stretch this rule and use a short #14 tap to feed the switch, but you can't use #14 from the switch to the fixture.
Don

Don:
I agree with your last post.
As a comment only, doesn't it seem like a lot of energy to expend to possibly save a few cents, if that?
The comment is not ment to be derogatory, just my observation.
HotLine1
John

14 ga. wire = 15 amp. The circuit breaker, NOT any specific load, determines the circuit size. Here is one basic difference between an electrician and a plumber. If the circuit breaker is 20 amp, you must use #12 or larger wire. Period.

John,
You can't make that statement. In motor power circuits, the load does determine the wire size and the OCPD will be much larger then what would normally be used for that size wire.
Don

After having this discussion several times here and elsewhere, I have always and still do vote no #14.

Hello,


I was under the impression that the lighting in the bathroom could be on the lighting circut and therefore did not fall under the 20 amp rule which applies to the dedicated bathroom receptacle circut.

Resquapt 19: I was simply paraprhasing NEC 240.4, which says "conductors...shall be protected...in accordance with their ampacities." Yes, I realise that there are some code-compliant scenarios where you are allowed to vary, and these are listed as exceptions to 240.4 (2002).
Perhaps I assume too much, but it seems to me that someone asking about #14 wire isn't likely to have even heard of tap rules, etc.
Since everybody seems to be doing some sort of electric work these days, and they tend to think like plumbers (and size according to the load), I try to convince people that #14 does't really exist- since there is invariably a 20-amp breaker on the circuit.
I also note that there are many appliances common in homes today that draw uncomfortably near 15 amps: hair driers, microwaves, power tools, space heaters, etc.
So I try to keep it simple.

john,
you do assume to much and how do you know what everybody else is doing?

john, #14 does exist and just because you want to save the world by preventing anyone from using a UL listed product, you should realize that there are more #14 wires on 20 AMP circuits than there are letters in the code book...connected by electricians, plumbers, carpenters homeowners and other people who you probably dont like either

ifa person ask a question it doesnt imply anything other than someone asking a question.

if you are intent on making your point about the way a plumber thinks compared to the way a electrician thinks, i say to you that are a bigot, prejudice and i wouldnt consider anything you have to say to be valid or carry any weight. i probably forgot more than you will ever know about the code and tap rules mate...bug off...i know lots of plumbers that would probably kick your a-- if you were man enough to say that to their face....

now that is how you speak your mind john

Frodo- Didn't mean anything personal, just stating facts.
Plumbers size things according to the load. We do not- we size according to the fuse/ circuit breaker, as the cited NEC says. This is because of the possibility of a short circuit; we want the wire to not be damaged before the fuse blows. If, on the other hand, a water pipe breaks, the leak will in no way damage the remaining pipe!
Just because a lot of people do things wrong does not make them right. Just because you can 'get away' doing something does not change that error into wisdom.
A large role is played in the NEC by science, engineering, and loss data. While, for any "rule" there may be some circumstance that justifies "bending" it, these are "exceptions," usually specified by the code, and the rule is still a rule.
I believe that the use of #14, even with 15 amp protection, is foolish in today's home. The second paragraph (90-1b) of the code admits that simply complying with the NEC may not be adequate for good service or future expansion." The next paragraph (90-1c) notes that the code is neither a design specification or instruction manual. In other words, it is very possible to do something that is foolish, but still "legal."
Now, if a man cannot be bothered to learn, and insists that his "feeling" is somehow wiser than the sum of everyone else's experiences, then there is no hope for him.
Putting #14 wire anywhere on a 20 amp circuit is simply wrong. Do it, and you're a fool. Undersize your circuits for reasonably expected loads, and you're possibly a legal fool.
Now, it is possible that I'm mis-informed. Perhaps someone could explain to me the virtues of undersized wired, and over-fused circuits?

I am not undrstanding why # 14 protected by a 15 amp breaker is "foolish" I do this everyday and ALL of the homes in this region are done this way. So far so good.

I agree with those who are tapping #14 onto #12 for lighting circuits. From a very practical point, if you are running a wire to one light fixture, you can be assured that the load will not exceed the wattage of the light bulb. So we are talking about 100 or 150 watts. Where is the harm? #14 on a 15 amp breaker should be fine for receptacles as well. I wouldn't run to a receptacle from a #12 - 20 amp circuit and tap a #14 to it, though, because the receptacle could see more than 15 amps connected load.

John Steinke,

When did you start picking circuit sizes based only on the OCPD?
In general terms, the NEC requires you to determine the load current requirements, then make adjustments for continuous or non-continuous, then chose a conductor(taking into account any applicable deratings and temperature limitations), and finally choose the OCPD.
For multi-outlet branch circuits, only, you are not required to determine the load and may size the circuit conductors based on the OCPD instead.

Overcurrent protection is a term that covers both overloads and short circuits. OCPDs applied per the NEC protect against both conditions.