If the NEC is necessary, why haven't half the buildings in Latin American burned to the ground and half the people been electrocuted? Anyone who's walked down a street in Mexico knows what I mean. Uncovered hot meter bases at eye level adjacent the sidewalk, 13,000 volt bare distribution lines 4 feet from balconies, etc. One big factor I've noticed is the differance in liability laws. Remember the guy that picked up his lawn mower to trim his hedge and cut off his fingers? Personally I think he should be eliminated from the gene pool not awarded one million bucks by a jury. Every time a new NEC book comes out it is fatter than the previous one. Never leaner. What will the 2052 edition look like? A foot thick maybe?
Every project of any size has code violations. A non-UL rated connector, a non-compliance box, switch, or receptacle and it's a game guessing what the inspector will allow. Contractors kiss his ass when he's at the job site and curse him when he leaves.
It's like a circus show Ive been watching for 27 years. If I didn't laugh I'd go insane. Then again maybe I have.

spoken like many old timers in this trade elecbob. i'd wager your not alone in viewing the direction the NEC is going.
methinks what drives the 'living document' these days differs from yesteryear.

May I point to Article 370 as affirmation of Bob's complaint? What precipitated the use of the word "nominal" in box supports when they speak of a 1" X 2"?

Everytime you write a rule, it is subject to interpretation. The founding fathers of the country knew that with the principle that the "Best Gummint is the least gummint" (OK I know that was Thom. Jefferson) but we never seem to learn that do we?

As Freddy Hartwell pointed out some time ago, read 430-52(c)(1), and follow up with the exception......we write a rule, and then immediately override it

Don't even start me on AFCI's.

You're right elecbob, and it's gonna get worse, not better. The code was written by a combination of electricians, and engineers, but heavy on the trade experience for each committee. Take a look at your committees now, and prepare a foot thick place on your desk.

Read the following threads here and send in your proposals to NFPA for the 2005 NEC, if your really have valid problems.

I agree, some words used in the NEC are "vague" and should not be used.

PS: How many of you have served as a committee member in any capacity?

Not easy is it?


https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000462.html

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000077.html

I would prefer not to have to contend with uncovered meter bases and 13kV. within arms reach.
Also, I would be willing to bet that, all things being equal, there are indeed more accidents, fires and electrocutions in places that do not have regulations governing electrical installations.

The code is needed to ensure that some of us do it right. But with everything today i believe it has also become wraped up in politics and moneymaking ideas. if i come up with a product and i can get the nec to require it i will make alot of money who knows maybe there are some kick backs some were. its all politics today and everyones scared of being sued. because our justice system awards idiots millions while the people who truly deserve to be compensated are given pennys on the dollar. just my 2 cents...

Bill:

Do you carry any translated electrical products?

If so, the NFPA has been translating the NEC for quite some time and they even hired someone from Mexico to help with quesions asked here.

1999 Spanish Edition National Electrical Code® Handbook and Code Set.

Joe,

We don't have any Spanish NEC-Related products. Just some Basic Electricity and Electronics Books in Spanish.

Bill

Thank you all for your opinions. Some times I think the NEC violates the seperation of church and state guarantees. The days of "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not" don't don't seem very far in the future. Espicially when you're working with an inspector to get the job done safely, on budget and on time.
I think the Spanish translated materials are being produced to facilitate persons from Mexico entering the electrical trades here (Does Canada have a French translation?). Has anyone hired a Spanish helper to break into the Spanish speaking market? How do you say "You need a new 200 amp panel" in Spanish?
bob

Usted necesita un 200 panel de amperio nuevo

I use the Don Rickles school of foreign language..........."If you speak English loudly enough, everyone understands it"

As for me, the contractors in the DC area use a LOT of Latino/Mexican help, we even have to provide Spanish interpreters for our safety meetings.

perhaps Joe, you could enlighten us here.

Is this by invite only?

Hey George, that's the same principle that most Brits use when going on vacation in Europe! You forgot the bit about speaking s-l-o-w-l-y as well as loudly though!

I'm still studying the NEC, but in general, if a code is perfect, why does it have to be revised every few years? I don't dispute that there are sections added to our (U.K.) code which have improved safety. I've also seen things added which don't seem to make much difference one way or the other, and I've seen changes which in my humble opinion are a retrograde step (e.g. an increase in the allowable ampacities of cables).

Where I think it gets silly is when suggestions are made to incorporate things to guard against something that only a grade-A idiot would do. "Somebody might stick his fingers in the light socket while in the bath," springs to mind. I think we need to draw the line somewhere.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-27-2002).]

Go to: http://www.nfpa.org and search for thr NFPA Technical Committee Membership Application



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 09-09-2002).]

My theory is that most non-English speaking people here in the States use the same system as dogs and children. They understand you when it is to their advantage. Actually, I believe that pets, who have nothing else to do than lay around listening to human conversation and observing the actions of humans really understand every word we speak. They are too smart to let us know it. If we knew our pets could understand everything we say, we would expect them to do more chores than merely bringing slippers and papers. They see the results of children becoming "intelligent".

Gerald Powell

If it's so great in Mexico, why do millions of Mexicans try to cross the border every year. We have a code because we DON'T want to be like Mexico.

Until most electricians wise up, or better yet, states require a license to do electrical work, electricians will not make a quarter in the business. All the smart land owners, developers, architects, and GCs beat them down because they allow themselves to be beat down.---I'll do it for $100 less, I'll do it for $200 less....etc.
I'm a relatively young guy and I have seen hundreds of electrical companies come and go. Have you ever heard a doctor say I'll operate on you for 10,000 less? Or a lawyer say I'll work for 25 an hour less than the other guy?

Or for that matter a doctor say I'll tell you whats wrong with you for free and then give you a price to fix it?

Is being an electrician so simple that individual licensing should not be required? If it is then I am the slowest person in the world because I've been in the trade for 17+ years and am just starting to feel like I have learned enough to know I'll never learn it all.

The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. I think electricians are destined to be in the latter group unless something changes.

The NEC is put together by a lot a people and is probably the best form of true democracy you'll find in any document any where in the world.

Perfect? No. Ever? Doubt it. The best code/law ever written? I think so.

Just imagine if our laws could be changed without the red tape it takes to change them with every ordinary average Joe having a say so or the ability to submit revisions. Big business may have less impact on the small guy.

These are the things our forefathers fought for. To prevent the few ruling elite and assure freedom for all.

I think the NEC is great.

God bless the USA!!!

Getting back to the original question: lots of home in the Third World DO burn or fall down; nor is it all that rare for entire neighborhoods to be devastated. COmpare the death toll in any third-world hurricane or earthquake to an equivalent US disaster. They lose thousands; we lose one or two.
Yes, I also question the self-serving positions taken by some code advocates- but, I can't help but wonder how many lives are saved by our codes.
Evidence to the effectiveness of codes can be seen in the differing insurance rates around the US, which are often related to the local codes. No code or AHJ= high rates. Even if fuse boxes are still NEC legal, try getting fire or mortgage insurance without upgrading to 100-amp circuit breaker service!

Right on Steve! The next time I email my nephew sitting on an aircraft carrier in the Red Sea I'l thank him for fighting to defand the NEC and protecting my right to install AFCI's.
Following is a newspaper article about a guy that went up in a manlift to get a better view of the Blue Angels:
Sun Aug 4/11:43 am: Officer Verhoff writes: "I was working uniformed patrol with my partner Officer Montaron when all of a sudden the sidewalks became filled with a mass of obviously distraught people. They were yelling and pointing toward the 1500 block of E Harrison St. We stopped and got out of the car to investigate. I saw a large blue boom lift that appeared to be on fire. The top of it was located near some electrical wires approximately four to five stories off the ground.... I [then] saw a burning man lying motionless on the ground beside the boom lift. I heard one citizen say, 'Don't touch him, he is wired.' I heard another citizen say, 'He was electrocuted.' Another citizen said, 'He fell from the boom, his head was on fire.' While I requested assistance from the Fire Department, Officer Montaron and Wong attempted to extinguish the fire [on the burning victim] with fire extinguishers. They were successful. Fire Department arrived on the scene and transported the victim to Harborview Medical Clinic.... Officer Gerry later notified me that the victim had been pronounced dead at the HMC." According to a witness, these were the last words of the unfortunate man--a painter at his first day on the job: "My boots are melting."

who should the NEC accomodate?

It would seem it cannot fully susbscribe to the general , or any one faction of the populace....