In the powder room of the house I'm wiring (rough-in almost done) the General doesn't want the GFCI receptacle for the basin as required by 210.52(D) to be counter height. He wants it in the baseboard below and to the right of the basin

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, atleast one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.

His argument: A "powder room" is not a bathroom.

My argument: definition of "bathroom" according to the NEC:

Bathroom: An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

His argument: It won't be used for anything anyway.

My argument: doesn't matter.

Then I start to get dirty looks and I start to feel that I'm protecting myself right out of a job.

So... Lowering the darn thing is very difficult anyway, all of the drywall is up except where the recept is and the cable is too short to reach where they want it.

I don't want to put it there anyway...

What do I do? What would you do?

The section does not require the receptacle to be above the counter. It just must be within 3' hortizontally from the basin on a wall that is adjacent to the basin. Where does it say it must be at or above the basin elevation?
Don

OK, thanks Don... If that's how the word "adjacent" is interpreted... Heck, I dunno...

Really, I thought it did mean above, and I was going to suggest that the code be amended to reflect that, but hey, if that ain't the codes intention, then the points moot and I'm wrong...

I'll move the receptacle in the morning.

Geez, I really do learn something new here everyday.

(Some times it's a little hard on the pride, but hey, I will admit when I'm wrong).

spark,
How wide is the counter? If you put the receptacle in the baseboard, will you still be within 3' of the edge of the sink (basin)?
I'm guessing not.
BTW,
Adjacent means "nearby" or "close to"

You'd be right Redsy, but Don's interpretation seems to be "3' horizontally", and the verticle distance doesn't seem to matter.

Guess I'm putting the job on hold until I get better answers.

Oh, there's no counter, just a basin on a stand.

I still think your point is valid though.

I think that the intent is that the recp be above the counter or basin, but the words don't say that.
Don

To me 3 feet is 3 feet regardless of the direction. The fact that it is a powder room and not a full bath would make me far more flexible if I were an inspector. I would move it, charge an extra, and maybe render the installed drywall useless in the process. (If I was feeling grumpy)

Funny that this is the GC's wish here, the dude who's job it is to make the job run smoothly

I should point out that the General Contractor in this case is really a team of engineers and architects (with secretaries and accountants) who act as "point men" for the jobs. Everything is subbed out, so there's "building" (framing) contractors, HVAC, plumbers, trim-carpenters, dry-wallers, drywall finishers, the electrical contractor (me), the excavators, the landscapers, the EC for the landscape lights (Joe M.), etc. etc. etc....

So the GC in this case has major interest here. In fact, on the second day of the job at the one I contracted (from the beginning) I found out from the point man that the switch boxes had to be exactly placed so that the finished door trim is 2" from the cover plate on all switches. I already knew they had spec'd for metal boxes.

So instead of hanging 40 or so boxes an hour, I'm hanging maybe, one per hour. Either have to block and shim out and/or cut chunks out of studs, and almost every recessed canister light's center line ended up with a truss in the way.

My bid at 2.5x my "normal" rate has turned into an underbid...

I would've never guessed.

Man who couldn't come out ahead on an $11K 3000 sq footer bid?

(change orders may push my original bid of $10.2K to about $12K when finished)...

Don, I agree and my gut feeling says that the intent of the code would be to have it above the basin or basin countertop, just don't have the "truth" to back me up...

It was a good opportunity for me to show how quickly I can admit to a mistake. Actually, I did the change for free including replacing the drywall (they would have back-charged me for the drywall anyway...).

I don't want to put a stop to this debate, I'd actually like to get to the bottom of it, and maybe even request a change in code. But I really don't want to be playing musical chairs with the location of this recept so if we finally decide that it should be above... I ain't moving it again.

Sorry to be stubborn, but I'm just getting a little weary.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]

Another note:

They've decided to add a couple of floor recepts... I said fine, but warned of the cost. The head cheese said that he wanted me to use regular boxes with a regular metal cover plate... He said that all the other houses had them, and no one pointed out anything wrong with it. I quoted 314.27(C). I won, eventually on that one.

I was called the "Electrical Evangelist" today by another point man...

Should I take that as a compliment?

(Actually, I kinda like it.)

<dreaming>And that puts me up there with Joe Tedesco and Mike Holt!</dreaming>


Hmmm... I'm getting the feeling that all of this is leading me to somewhere important...


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]

I worked for a group such as you describe ONCE. They call themselves construction magement. They should have left off the "construction" because they knew nothing about it. Also I am seeing a pattern here and am wondering how the heck you are finding these people to work for? I guess being an electrical evengelist is a good thing, right? That means you are working by the book and doing the right thing. Apparently they are not accustomed to that in your area.

LOL!, the trade 'evangalists' would indeed recognize your perserverance Virg, yet our turf is similar in that exorcisim is oft more apropos

but seriously.... 'Engineers' thrive on detail, text, reference, etc, this is thier arena......

Yep, that sums it up...

careful...you could start a trend.....

Yep... You got it Electricmanscott...

"Construction Management" and "LLC" are a part of their business name...

Talk about being picky. In many of our old houses we count ourselves lucky if we get all the switches at the same height!

Yes, Paul... That one small detail made the difference between an expected 20% profit after paying myself to about a 20% loss under the same (so I'm really just paying myself a lot less)... And no other house there that I've seen has had to come under the same rule... (their boxes aren't consistant...)

What makes it bad is in the contract that I was pressured into signing before given a chance to read it, states that the GC can define what a "change" is and isn't... Simply moving something isn't.

My problem now lies in convincing them of the cost difference between my work and the work of others and to convince them that my work is worth more money because of less liability for all. I plan to make materials lists with the "standard" materials (the ones everyone else uses here...) and another with the list of materials that I use, and show the materials cost difference, and the labor difference. This will only work for the next bid, too late on this house.

Think they'll buy it?

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-13-2002).]

don't worry 'bout it.......

Hmm, whatever the intent, reading the letter of what's written there, I guess it doesn't say that the recept must be above the basin (or countertop, if present).

Concise Oxford English dictionary:

I guess it comes down to one's individual interpretation of what constitutes "near."

Letter of the rules aside, my instinct would be that the outlet should be placed up high rather than down in the baseboard.

So, should I submit a request for change, or do we want to keep a little flexibility here?

If there was no spec in any plans for it to be in a specific location and you installed it next to the sink which is standard and they wanted ii moved somewhere else and you moved it.......whew! I would absolutely submit a change order. You should be paid for ANY work you do. Remember, the reason you are in business is to make money. And from my experience the GC is none to shy about making money off you as you should not be shy about getting paid for your work. Another view would be if this is maybe the only hiccup through the job and you are making a profit let it go. It can be good for your reputation. Just don't be taken advantage of.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 07-14-2002).]

Too late on the change order... Work cannot commence until a written change order is approved, and I already fixed it.

Let me reword my last Q...

So, should I submit a request for change for 210.52(D) to specify "above", or do we want to keep a little flexibility here?

iam no expert but i had nec codes class last year and from what i remember and how i read it the receptacle is placed within 3ft of the edge of the basin, this means measure away from the basin horizontally and within 3ft you have to put the outlet. i was told at the time of the class it should be counter height. typically the outlet is installed around the basin level no women in a powder room wants to bend over to the floor to plug in all her beauty equipment. i

What does the (AHJ) inspector say?

Why not? , at the very least, you'll get some sort of substaintation as to current practice.

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-17-2002).]

electrician02125,
No local inspector has authority over it here, just a moral/cover-my-assets type of thing.

Sparky, how do I use the search engine in that link?

http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/pcsubmit/pcsrch.html

Enter the document number 70 and hit search for NFPA 70 ................

Go ahead and submit the proposal, and if it gets rejected then you'll have your answer in the panel comment that will include a technical reason for the rejection.

[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-18-2002).]

Thanks Joe!

Here's what I submitted:

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, atleast one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900mm (3 ft), measured horizontally, of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop and shall be above the basin or basin countertop.

The original paragraph may be interpreted to allow the receptacle to be mounted lower than the basin or basin countertop, which would increase the likelihood of extension cords being used with hairdryers and other bathroom electrical equipment.

Also, it is unclear if the three foot distance is measured horizontally or in a direct line.

kudos' to Kelly Electric!

The rationale for the placement of the receptacle within 3 ft is that someone can use an electric shaver, or hair dryer, etc. and not lose sight of their mug in the mirror in the process. If some 6-5 dude had to extend his 6' shaver cord (and I don't know if shaver cords are 6') from the baseboard moulding up to trim his side burns he might have a bit of a problem. The 3ft rule is a pragmatic compromise.

especially true with a floor receptacle....

Only a "degreed professional" would design a sink without anyplace to put/hang the associated items that are there!