This is mainly a curiosity Q...

Saw an excavating outfit laying 3" and 4" electrical grade conduit with sweeps along the highway. Plus the service laterals are laid in by excavtors at the "big job" *cough* Greenbrier *cough*. They even install the sweep and riser (sched 80, sometimes...) in most of the jobs (we'll do our own, thanks...)

My questions are:

When is work considered "electrical work"?

Can non-electrician sub-contractors do the trenching?

... lay the conduit? (number of bends, proper gluing, arranging to drain, etc. in question here)

...place the pull rope?

...pull the wire?

Just where is the "line" that seperates electrical work from work that doesn't require electrical licensing?

I'm sure this differs by location, so just give me what the standard is in your area, and any codes, rules or standards that you may be aware of...

Allow me to add that, for sake of argument, let's ignore the fact that the PoCo doesn't fall under the same rules, and pretend that I'm talking sub-feeders (post meter feeders)...

Thanks!

-Virgil

PS: No, I'm not going tattle or "become a trouble maker" as it was so eloquently put to me today...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-11-2002).]

If I understand your question, this could fall under the PoCos jurisdiction which does not have to conform to NEC. My PoCos sub out all this stuff. Had utility sub change out xfmrs for an upgrade and come back with 1/0al for a 600amp service. Guess they know somthing I don't.

We see several non-electrical contractors do this all the time. Most are boring for telco and cable service, but some lay in power conduits also. Usually the poco of an electrical contractor pull the wire for power. The telco and cable has almost anybody pull the wire or fiber.
As long as it works and is safe the inspectors pass it by.
The inspector will check to see if a permit has been pulled for secondaries - only ECs there.

Once again, please ignore the fact that the Power Company does not have to comply, and let's assume I'm talking about feeders that would be in the jurisdiction of the 2002 National Electrical Code, NFPA 70.

What are they allowed to do and what aren't they allowed to do?



Here, I hire out the trenching and backfill only, and after I mark the path to ensure less than 360º of bends. For feeders, I'll lay the conduit, blow the mouse, pull the rope then pull the feeders. In laterals, the PoCo pulls the feeders and I do all but the trenching and backfill.

I've seen too many unglued pipe joints, sched 40 where 80 should be, more than 4 90's, no straps on the riser, large sharp stones, etc. etc...

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-12-2002).]

Here in California the excavating is usually done by a General Engineering Contractor but thy will often install the electrical conduit, water, gas and sewer piping. Since they are following plans drawn by the electrical contractor or engineer there is no real need for them to have any electrical skills to glue pipe together.

Here there is no one to define said line but me. If i don't like it, i don't energize it. I am the one who ultimatley is liable ( yeah, all other 'subs' will point to me..)

As such, i have 'got into it' with a number of excavators, who assume ( key word) that i will 'make work' whatever configuration they leave me. I have had to stand my ground,and have lost biz to this. A common line i use in said confrontations is that i won't dig , if you don't wire. 'Wire' includes anything that a conductor passes thru....

Case in point, i require a pedestal by a residential sewer pump .
Excavators run a 3/4" pvc straight into the tank.....
I won't do ( or stand behind) direct burial SEC's, as some excavators will do and expect me ( as well as the poco) to make good on.
I will not stand behind any direct buried conductor short of a GEC.........

Excavators and I have a fairly shaky relationship.......

I am not an electrictian. I get paid to do design, engineering, and all construction except where a license is required (usally electric, plumbing, and HVAC).

No one drills holes or puts in any fasteners (that includes those MN staples) except me. I am not sure where trenches would fall.

--------

I suppose that sparky66wv and I would have a tough time working together.

I know there are pros and cons concerning unions. But I will say this, in this area on union jobs, the situation sparky mentioned would not be allowed. The electricians would lay the conduit, pull the wires and terminate them. No excavating outfit would be doing electrical work.

I suppose that sparky66wv and I would have a tough time working together.

Hunh? What did I say to give you that impression?

(Genuinely interested, no sarcasm involved...)



"...there is no real need for them to have any electrical skills to glue pipe together..."

Yes, but, not being water line, the excuse of "why?" will come into play, and it won't be glued at all, then, will come apart during the pull.... I've seen this happen...
and was the one with the shovel digging up someone else's mistake...

GRRR!



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-13-2002).]

No intent to offend spark66wv ---

You appear to not trust others to dig your trenches. If you worked on my jobsite you would not even be present when the trench was dug, the pipe laid, the pipe is inspected, and the trunch is filled. (I supposed you would not like that.)

No offense, you are not a professional with a backhoe.

"...you are not a professional with a backhoe..."

Not trying to start a flame war, but for all you know, I could be 65 years old and was an equipment operator in the war...

But it turns out, you are right, I am not...

But apparently neither are the crews that I have hired...

Cases in point...

Hired a guy to trench a lateral for me... I told him that it wasn't deep enough. He said "This is how deep I always dig 'em." I shrug, and say "OooKaaayyy..." And it fails the inspection before the backfill and the whole thing has to be trenched again.

Not my fault, I tried to tell him.

Then, a very professional crew (I was genuinely impressed with everything they did except for the following story) the delivery had forgotten my disconnect, so I hung the Meterbase, and rushed off to get the disco (40 miles one way) and when I get back, they've piped to the wrong side of the meter, and have the pipe for the load side on the meter as well, sans disco. It was another 350' to the panel.

We had to tear in out, etc. etc.

As long as it's done to code and will definately pass an inspection regardless of which inspector I call, then I can live with it.

One lawsuit is all it takes to ruin all that you have ever worked for. If it is 100% to code, they have nothing to sue over, unless they want to sue the AHJ. I'd rather sit on my butt and lose money, it's a whole lot easier.

Not trying to flame here, just trying to show my perspective.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-13-2002).]

In the area I primarily work. we can sub the undergroud out, but there will be a licensed electrician on site before the approval and backfill.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 06-13-2002).]

In Wisconsin, we'd lay pipe, blow the mouse, pull a scrubber, pull the mouse again all lubed up with yellow77, then pull the rope, then pull the conductors, using winch with tension meter, and a master was always present and overseeing the operation (I was a journeyman then).

We did an underground for an MRI machine at a hospital, and we did our own cutting and trenching. I guess that would be the norm in a place that has strict code enforcement.

I kinda liked working in Wisconsin...(but it just ain't WV!)

Here in WV, I've also seen Main CB's make the ol' buzz and snap noise due to scraped insulation on a feed from the disco to a mobile home, and one crew even broke one of the conductors in a different pull!


The excavators I have used just don't have the electrical knowledge to care about the particulars of the installation.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-13-2002).]

Sounds like Sparky is a trouble maker! Just kidding of coarse.. But I do agree with you. I find it hard to let anyone do anything when it comes to the electrical aspects. That includes drilling holes through beams as well. Heck if the holes are not straight I risk burning my wires with every pull over 10 feet! As for staples well I think we will all agree its better to teach them, rather than just let someone else do it alone.. As for trenching.. Well I let others do that provided its a min of 2' on EVERYTHING. I lay the pipe not them. Like sparky said too many times people have forgotten to glue a pipe together and it comes loose during a pull!

James

I guess I have always lived by the maxim:

"If you want a job done right, you got to do it yourself."

And my experience has reinforced this notion.

George, your presence alone here impresses me, at least you are trying to improve your knowledge by visiting ECN. Heck, you may even own a code book. That goes above and beyond most electrical contractors here in my area, let alone non-electricians. I have respect for that.

I'm just so disgusted with the quality of work that I see that I trust very few people, and yes, a lot of GC's find me hard to work with, but my price is fair, my work honest, and always to code to the best of my knowledge even if I've got to make waves to do it.

I want to be a good electrician first and foremost.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-13-2002).]

Sparky66wv:
Excellant !!!!

-Mark-

'66wv--

"...feed from the disco to a mobile home"???

Oh, I'll bet you mean switch, and not a place with flashing lites and '70s music, eh?

More of that "local customs, regional variations," I bet...

--Bjarney

Hey, when I first visited this board it took me a while to figure out that "disco" meant disconnect as well!

They call 'em isolators over here.

I guess what we need is an ECN glossary...

'66wv-- That's not totally insane.

{IEEE 'ESMOL' has a guide publication that has illustrations of tools linemen use, along with formal and slang names.}

Trade Slang

66wv ---

I am sure we (all of us) could go out and have a few drinks together and leave happy.

Turf wars are tough. We all want control of our own turf.