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Posted By: Bill Addiss AFCI Question - 07/10/01 07:38 PM
Does anyone know if AFCI's will be required on existing applicable circuits if a breaker is replaced or a Service is Upgraded?

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/10/01 08:46 PM
In Vt, yes..

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Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/10/01 10:40 PM
Sparky,

Scenario:
Breaker for Bedroom circuit goes bad and must be replaced. The Panel is a Pushmatic or FPE what do you do?

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/10/01 11:13 PM
I will need to ask at this point. All i know is we are to AFCI per service upgrade, single component replacement may, or may not parrallel the GFI deal....
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: AFCI Question - 07/14/01 09:08 AM
AFCI Information

http://www.geindustrial.com/industrialsystems/loadcenters/notes/afci_paper.htm
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/15/01 12:16 AM
Is anyone here familair with the term manufacture's hype

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Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/15/01 12:32 AM
Bear with me as i expand on my last post here.
I am involved in another trade. There are saftey standards knee deep. A particular concern arose that caught the attention of many leading agencies that oversee this trade. Because of all the noise generated by the various agencies, some gunning for the others publicly, the manufacturer's pumped out a new safety wigdet, the timing being fantastically opportune...
Seen as a cure all , and to save face in reality for some, this was adopted unanimously .
As time passed, the realities of what was implemented became apparent. The 'guru's picked it's integrity apart piece by piece. Articles in trade magazines disputed and debunked the application. Eventually, through education AND NOT scare tactics, the truth came out.

Sound familar?
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/15/01 01:03 AM
Sparky,

You had mentioned that "living areas" were also included (required AFCI protection) in your area (Vt). What rooms does that include?
Or, should I say what does that not include?

Do you have something in writing We could see? Just curious to see the wording.

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/15/01 08:42 AM
I have searched the VT legislative home page , no soap. If i can find the hardcopy the AHJ gave me i will try to scan/post it.
It says, bedrooms and living areas, which really only leaves bathrooms, kitchens , outbuildings and appliances as places to quietly have an arc or two.

The statistical info collected shows the incident of fires highest in bedrooms first, living areas second, as so on.

VT probably ammended the NEC based on these findings.

The Arc fault's, as i understand it, wil protect the branch circuit only, not what U plug into it.

I have been witness to enough fires of questionable orgin to know that the collected statistics are not a solid science, as many situations have resulted in a coin toss that incriminates our trade.

given the same recipe, i could probably introduce legislation eluding to the moon being made of cheese.
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/17/01 06:54 PM
Bill,
an answer to your 7-14 post.

#5-Adoption Of Nationally Recognized Safety Standards


delete and replace as follows-article 210-12(b)

210-12(b) Dwelling Units living areas and Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125V, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere receptacle outlets installed in the dwelling unit living area and bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interupter(s).
(To achieve an orderly transistion for compliance this Section shall take effect January 1, 2001.


source-THE VERMONT ELECTRICAL SAFETY RULES 1999




[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-17-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/17/01 09:28 PM
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2002/bills/intro/H-137.HTM

This is a pending Bill in Vermont goverment. Had this been pursued decades ago AFCI's may not have been as popular as they are now up here.

Since i have been here, the requirements of licensure have gone from 4 family to 3 family . No license is required for a 2-family, but it needs to pass inspection to gain an energizing permit.
( DYI'ers comically crash and burn here!)

This bill would amount to similar circumstances for a single family dwelling.

Ironically, organized labor has been the catalist of this, not the 'safety' section of our residents.

Short version.... a wrong and a safety widget do not make a right.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/18/01 02:29 AM
Sparky,

Does Vt have a definition of "living area" ?

I had heard that the original NEC wording "outlet" may be interpreted to include lighting too. Yours (Vt's) says "receptacle outlets" though. They'll probably change it to match the NEC

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/18/01 11:18 AM
Bill,
there is no definitions section to the VT rules. the AHJ makes the call. ever see a panel with 1/2 the noodles on breakers?, just did one....
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/19/01 12:07 AM
An update on my 7-17 legislation post. the Dept of Labor & Industry in Vermont ( where all our inspectors are) apparently will only back such legislation given more $$$ to hire more inspectors.
Posted By: Resistor Re: AFCI Question - 07/21/01 11:26 PM
Well like some of you I was wondering if besides Vermont, according to one of your links (sorry don't have it)that AFCI would be implemented in the 2002 NEC. Is that true and if so is it only in conjunction with GFCI or is it in replacement of GFCI. Lets get redundant!
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/22/01 01:52 AM
Resistor,

The AFCI requirement was written into the '99 NEC to take effect Jan 2002, Vt was just a year early.


Check 210-12 in the '99 NEC

Bill
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/23/01 06:19 PM
>is it only in conjunction with GFCI or is it in replacement of GFCI.

There is no redundancy. They are two different technologies. AFCI does not replace GFCI nor provide shock protection.
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 07/25/01 09:12 PM
Bill,
as to your 7-17 post....


210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter (AFCI) Protection
The word "receptacle" was deleted and the word "listed" was added. This subsection now extends AFCI protection to all 125V outlets in dwelling unit bedrooms, whereas the 1999 NEC only required AFCI protection for all branch circuits that supply 15 or 20A, 1-phase 125V receptacle outlets in dwelling unit bedrooms.

Only AFCI circuit breakers are listed for this purpose. AFCI receptacles, AFCI cord sets, or AFCI adapters will only protects the power supply cord connected to the AFCI device, it will protect the branch circuit conductors.


from Mike Holt's newsletters
i hope he does not mind, but it fits well in this thread
Posted By: Glenn Re: AFCI Question - 07/25/01 11:54 PM
In the last sentence of Mikes comment on AFCI, does the " it " refer to the AFCI CB or to an AFCI Recp. etc. plugged into a receptacle of an AFCI Branch Circuit CB?

Glenn
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 01:47 AM
Mike meant:

Only AFCI circuit breakers are listed for this purpose. AFCI receptacles, AFCI cord sets, or AFCI adapters only protect the power supply cord connected to said AFCI device. Only an AFCI circuit breaker can protect the branch circuit conductors as required by this article.
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 03:55 AM
I still get blank looks when asking for the availability of AFCI's at my local supplier. I can only hope they will have them by the year's end...

I fear that houses I'm working on now may not get the final punchout until 1-1-02...
I've been careful to wire all bedrooms circuits so that adding AFCI's will be easy.

I've been successful in my sales pitch of AFCI's (got a rewire coming up...the owner likes the idea... especially on any circuits we can't replace...) but I need to follow up...

Heck...I don't even know what they'll cost here!
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 04:10 AM
You could resort to ordering them off the Internet.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 04:13 AM
'66,

Do you think that will be enforced where you are? I mean that AFCIs' will be required on work done now but not Final inspected until after 1-1-02 ?

Bill
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 04:39 AM
Even if it isn't enforced, he wants to be able to say that he complied with Code so he isn't liable if a house ever burns down after he was there.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 05:12 AM
The problem arises when the original quote did not allow several hundred dollars for AFCI's and special wiring practices.

Bill
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 05:35 AM
>special wiring practices.
What do you mean by that beyond what he has already done?
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 05:58 AM
First thing that comes to mind would be not using 3 wire cables.
More wire, More Time, = More $$
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 11:52 AM
Quote
I've been careful to wire all bedrooms circuits so that adding AFCI's will be easy.


Now I'm lost...

3 wire...?

I'm confused here...

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For this job I'd like to offer as an upgrade with the extra $$$ to go with it.

I only want to convince my supplier to start carrying them, I guess...

In fact, I just left a lengthly message on the manager's voice mail concerning same...

Hey, it's their job!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 07-26-2001).]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 02:26 PM
Virgil,

What I meant by the 3 wire mention is that the AFCI Breakers are only single pole breakers. Can they work on a Multiwire circuit? (SP GFCIs' can't) You'd have to run individual circuits.

BTW, I just asked my local AHJ this morning about enforcement on this subject and They will be going by installation date, not final inspection date.

Bill
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 09:04 PM
>AFCI Breakers are only single pole breakers.
Cutler-Hammer offers 15 & 20 A SP & DP in types BR and CH.

>Can they work on a Multiwire circuit?
SP, no. DP, I hope so!
[Linked Image from homesafetycentral.com]
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: AFCI Question - 07/26/01 09:17 PM
That is informative DS,

I, and others were not aware of a Double pole version. That must be new. So much for the 3 wire argument.

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: AFCI Question - 08/11/01 12:25 AM
Can i use a large 2-pole AFCI to protect a subpanel... and all those circuits....?
as in 215-9 for GFI's
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 08/11/01 12:36 AM
I don't understand AFCIs well enough to know for sure. Obviously a GFCI would work and do its job no matter how many circuits...

... except of course that it could detect a leak from hot to neutral anywhere among the circuits. Whereas a GFCI on a single circuit will detect a leak to/from another circuit.

Now what I've seen of the AFCI arc signature recognition, they show the wave pattern of a circuit with nothing on it but the arc fault. But of course AFCIs are supposed to be able to detect arcs on a circuit with many things plugged into it. So it makes sense to me that they should be able to detect on any circuit in the entire subpanel fed from it. Even if a circuit is loaded with lot of noisy devices, I think that the arc's intermittent current flow should stand out well above the noise, meaning that you aren't losing sensitivity.

The only real drawback is that an arc on any branch from the subpanel shuts down the whole subpanel.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: AFCI Question - 08/11/01 12:37 AM
If anyone becomes aware of a Pushmatic version, please mention it.
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