ECN Forum
Posted By: sparky66wv Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 02:00 AM
A "money is no worry" customer doesn't want a gaudy disconnect mussing up his view whilst enjoying his hot tub. It will be installed in a screened-in porch.

680-12 states that "...A disconnecting means shall be provided and be accessible, located within sight from all pools, spas and hot tub equipment..."

100-A says that "Disconnecting Means. A device, or group of devices or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply."


My idea, not yet suggested to the customer, is perhaps to install a 15A SP switch that controls a contactor (50A) that switches the supplied power. (The switch will be in a WP box and cover). I believe my customer would be willing to pay the extra for the unspoiled view, and I'll go along as long as I'm not breaking code doing it.

Are 50A 2 Pole contactors available and are they rated for any type load, other that motors? (They're rated higher for non-motor loads, aren't they?)

Any problems with this idea?
Posted By: electure Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 02:35 AM
I'm not around any of my books right now, but 60 amp rated contactors are easily gotten; not sure on 50. Will you have to put a lockable cover on your switch?
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 02:52 AM
60A contactor would be fine... I should have said at least 50A..

As far as the lockable cover for the switch, for LOTO purposes? This is a residential situation, any difference there? Can the LOTO be used for the panel breaker instead?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 03:01 AM
I am pretty cold to that idea. I would not trust the contactor to disengage and remain disengaged. To me a disconnect is a manual switch on the circuit itself.

I could say, hey, browse to www disconnects.net and uncheck the box for your circuit and my computer will de-energize and lock it out for you.


Yeah, perhaps in a hundred years.

But I think a disconnect is a switch that I physically open and lock open, not some remote control button.


Now don't get me wrong, and emergency switch like this is okay. But if the in sight disconnect is for me to work on it, I want to see that the contacts are physically open.

Was that Scott who once shut down a power plant by accidentally shorting a control wire?
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 03:21 AM
I would, personally, shut off the breaker in the panel before working on the hot tub, and I would not rely on a contactor to cut off the circuit for maintenance purposes either...

I suppose I assumed that the intentions of 680-12 is to provide a means of shutting down the hot tub for the "consumers", not entirely unlike an E-switch; although 680-38 gives exception for residential for actual E-switches.

The switch will not even remotely resemble a disconnect, so I see no danger for confusion where a maintenance shut off is required. I would bet that any maintenance man would shut-off the 50A GFCI breaker marked "Hot Tub" in the panel and not even notice the lowly switch on the wall.

This is simply my opinion, and any NEC quotes to thwart this idea will render this idea as useless.

Dspark, your good points and opinion has not gone unnoticed, however.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 05:35 AM
Virgil,

As far as I know, the main purpose of the disconnect within sight is to protect the repairman. They can turn it off and because it is within sight, can watch to make sure that no one turns it back on. In the past I've been able to avoid the "within sight" requirement (for the same reasons) if it is capable of being locked in the open position. Why don't you pass it by your AHJ.

Bill
Posted By: sparky Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 10:34 AM
can the 'within sight' clause consider you moving said disco up to 50' away ?
Posted By: sparky Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 10:38 AM
ya know, this brings another point to mind, no one likes to see our work! carpenters build stuff , everyone says OOOH!, we build stuff and they think it's ugly!

well i think my craft looks good!

( insert french accent here)

I am an arrrtissst!, I canno' wok likea dissss!

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Redsy Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 11:30 AM
Could you mount the disconnect on the unit on the opposite(yard) side of the home. It wouldn't spoil his view because he won't be able to see it.
Posted By: electure Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 11:33 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a contactor close on its own without some power being applied to the coil. Anyone working on the spa should check for live wires whether they have a disco or not. Wouldn't this be something like the EPO switch in a gas station, which shuts the power down to the turbine pumps?
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 01:16 PM
Quote
Could you mount the disconnect on the unit on the opposite(yard) side of the home. It wouldn't spoil his view because he won't be able to see it.

Uh... but doesn't that bust 680-12?

"A disconnecting means shall be provided and be accessible, located within sight from all pools, spas and hot tub equipment..."
Posted By: itannicnic Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 02:30 PM
Warning: Comments from the peanut gallery here.

Couldn't you give him a choice between a regular disconnect and a top-of-the-line, OSHA approved for antarctic typhoon conditions disconnect. Let him select the better one and brag to his friends that "you just can't be too careful about these things."
Posted By: Redsy Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 04:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by sparky66wv:
Uh... but doesn't that bust 680-12?

"A disconnecting means shall be provided and be accessible, [b]located within sight
from all pools, spas and hot tub equipment..." [/B]

Sorry, it also would be less than 5 ft.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 06-21-2001).]
Posted By: WARREN1 Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 05:08 PM
Could you use a GFCI receptacle and a cord and plug per 680-7? Or is this not a good application for your situation? Is this for the pump or the heaters?
I tend to agree with dspark that the disconnect is for his safety should something go awry somewhere in the circuit. The switch would be considered as controls circuit (like a pushbutton on a motor) and not the required disconnect.
Posted By: Bill Addiss Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 09:28 PM
Warren,

Many Tubs, even the package units that come with cord and plug are converted to 240 volt operation and then require a hardwired 40 to 60 amp circuit. These need disconnects within sight.

Bill
Posted By: Matt M Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 10:59 PM
Electure,

The problem isn't that the contactor would inadvertantly close by itself without control power, but it is fairly common to see one or more of the contacts weld themselves closed during operation.

I think this is a really BAD idea. Yeah you're right, anyone working on this spa should lock out the breaker and check for voltage before doing the work, but unfortunately we live in the real world, we have to plan for the idiot that doesn't take the time.

There has to be an OSHA or some other rule prohibiting this somewhere, I can't imagine this being an acceptable means of meeting the requirements of 680-12. I know that breaking control voltage is not an acceptable means to lock out equipment at the manufacturing plant that I work at, and management would never have a rule like that unless some law forced them to.

I say put the disco in according to 680-12, and tell the guy with the money to have someone paint some flowerdy stuff on it [Linked Image]

Matt
Posted By: sparky Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 11:07 PM
[Linked Image] gents;

680-12 , as well as other 680 rulings is asking that the disco NOT be any closer than 5', can't rest yer beer there,no-no-no, not in arms length
{I got bagged on this Redsy,don't feel bad)

the key wording is 'within sight'

we all know where this ends up.

680-38 , is an E-stop, because of the commercial spas & tubs that have a pump room and no disco @ the unit. This is due to 680-12 ....

(apparently someone drowned)

Personally i like itannicnic's idea and would like nothing better than to sit in my H-tub with a brew admiring a well constructed disco.

(is it me, or do some people lack taste?)
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/21/01 11:53 PM
Thanks for all the input guys...

OK...bad idea...

Bill, (or anyone) did the discos you mentioned in the last thread have a little more appeal than a regular one? Are there any flush mountable units with a WP cover?

My local supplier has nothing but a regular GE raintite 60A unit, of which can house the 50A GFCI breaker.

I could mount it on Kendorf and use PVC coated rigid and explosion-proof fittings for more bragging rights! [Linked Image]
Posted By: ampznvoltz Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/22/01 12:19 AM
If im working on a hot tub motor, I want to see that disconnect right there and not just a SWITCH. Good idea though(for the owners convenience anyway)
Posted By: Redsy Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/22/01 01:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by sparky:
[Linked Image] gents;

680-12 , as well as other 680 rulings is asking that the disco NOT be any closer than 5', can't rest yer beer there,no-no-no, not in arms length

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

I believe that something as compelling as having a beer holder within arms reach while in a spa requires an exception! Who wants to race me to submit the proposal?

{I got bagged on this Redsy,don't feel bad)

the key wording is 'within sight'

we all know where this ends up.

680-38 , is an E-stop, because of the commercial spas & tubs that have a pump room and no disco @ the unit. This is due to 680-12 ....

(apparently someone drowned)

Personally i like itannicnic's idea and would like nothing better than to sit in my H-tub with a brew admiring a well constructed disco.

(is it me, or do some people lack taste?)

Posted By: sparky Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/22/01 01:40 AM
integral beer holders in designer disco's!

hey , they laughed at the pet rock...

with applogies to Virgil

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Resistor Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/27/01 02:15 AM
I guess you should ask your inspector. What if you lifted the spa access panel and placed the disconnect on the floor below the spa.

That would hide it from the customer and the service tech couldn't miss it.

I think I had to do this once before. But that was my 'one' friendly inspector. [Linked Image]
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/27/01 01:07 PM
Special situation here Resistor...

No AHJ's, and on the rare occassion that an AHJ has to be involved, I usually can run circles around them code-wise...

The AHJ is in most cases my own conscience and moral obligation...

Truth is, I could hardwire this sucker straight to the transformer with an extension cord and no one would be the wiser.

It's so bad in fact that I have quoted four sections of code on my invoice to "justify" the use of expensive items such as a disco and a GFCI 50A 2 Pole CB.

I'm trying very hard against all odds here...

[Linked Image]


[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 06-27-2001).]
Posted By: sparky Re: Another Hot Tub problem - 06/27/01 09:28 PM
Being an ethical tradesman isn't easy, especially when the 'home doctor' could run zip cord to the x-former.

[Linked Image]
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