I've got a RV garage for a homeowner that will have 9 regular 15 amp 120 volt outlets and 1 (30 amp)120 volt RV outlet. There has been a 30 amp circuit wired on his new house and brought out at the back of his house to feed this garage. I will have to trench over to the building with the feed.
By code I can't put a 15 or 20 amp outlet on a 30 amp breaker. If I pull the circuits into a small breaker panel and break it down to 20 amp circuit for the regular outlets and a 30 amp breaker for the RV outlet, I can't use the regular 15 or 20 amp GFCI recpt. to protect it. Since I don't know of a 30 amp GFCI outlet, I guess the only way is to get a 30 amp. GFCI breaker in the panel to protect it. Am I right??
Thanks...

Multi-part opinion:
Determine the connected load for the outlets you have to install.
Determine IF the existing partial feeder is adequate for the load.

Now, is the existing feeder 2 wire, 3 wire, or?
I'm assuming it's #10

IMHO, you may be better off running a 60 amp, 4 wire to the garage, and install a subpanel, then you can proceed as needed.

What do you think?

John, the feeder has already been run to supply the building. The owner says that one circuit will be sufficient, since he will never be using more than one outlet at a time. It will be 120 volt 3 wire feeder ( 10/2 with ground). As I said, my only problem seems to be the rating on the receptacles. As I see it, I can't install regular 15 or 20 amp 120 volt receptacles on a circuit that has a 30 amp breaker feeding it, so the only way I see of remedying it, is to set a small 2 circuit panel, feeding it with the 10/2, coming back out of the panel with (1) 20 amp circuit to feed the regular 15 or 20 amp receptacles, then coming back out of it and feeding the 30 amp RV receptacle. Thanks.. Steve

Just read the part on GFCI's in a residential garage. As I read, it says that 15 and 20 amps have to be GFCI protected. Don't say anything about 30 amp.....

I can see you doing this with the 2 pole disconnect box,
using a 20 and a 30 breaker and feeding the 20 side from the 30 but it is pretty funky if not illegal.

OK, I've seen 10/2 run to a small 4 circuit panel. Grd bar, neutral bar, and the 'hot' jumped from one line lug to the other.

It had 4 single pole cbs, 2x15 & 2 x20 amps, going to GFI receptacles. (old detached garage). Our CCO inspector eyeballed it, and the HO could not produce any documentation. He confessed that it was DIY.

Did it work? Yes. Was it compliant?

Jumping from one line lug to the other. 2 conductors under a single lug. 110.3 (b) panel labeled as 120/240 3 wire.

Now, the 'panel' was an FPE, and the panel in the house was also FPE.

Did I red tag it? No. He called an EC. 20 amp cb on the feeder, panel trashed; 14/2 (15 amp circuits) removed; 12/2 to daisy chain GFI outlets. Case closed.

Maybe I missed it John, but is it against code to jumper two legs with 120 volts? Under the circumstances, I don't see any other way, unless I try to get away with 20 amp recpts. on a 30 amp breaker. I can't send 240 because it has no neutral...Thanks

There is another way but it is not the cheap way to go.

Put a 240 to 120/240 transformer in there and feed it with 240v. That would be about $700-1500 tho.

A new feeder starts looking pretty attractive at that point.

The 30 amp receptacle does not need to be GFCI protected. (unless there has been a code change that I am unaware of)

How about one of these? Just abandon the 50



Or one of these with a 30 amp recep swapped in and a 20 amp breaker swapped in to supply the gfci circuit. I know, modification of a listed product blah blah etc

Put in a regular 30a 120v outlet and then serve the 20a circuit from one of these with an S adapter in it

sparkync:
110.3 (b) relates to mfg installation instructions, and technically the panel is 120/240 volt, 3 wire with a grd.

I have seen the 'hot' spliced with two tails to solve the 'two wires in one lug issue.

It is pretty hard to find a legal answer.

John and Greg, if you were inspecting my job, would you turn it down because I jumpered the lugs with 120 volts and labeled it "120 volts" on the outside cover? I want to be right, but I don't want to go overboard with it either. thanks and splicing the "hot" wire seems like a suitable compromise to meet Mfg. installation instructions.

Greg and Big B, the connection for the RV will be on the opposite side of the building than the line feed,(building has a 15ft. ceiling, is 45ft. long, and the RV outlet will be near the back on the opposite side). The whole job will be in 1/2 emt. Not really convenient to use one of the options you have shown, but thanks anyway..

I would probably hold my nose and accept a 2 pole disconnect with a 20 and a 30 in it but I wouldn't like it.
You would certainly need 30a protection on the line side of this feeder (in the house). It would not be a tap.

I would hold my nose also, after speaking with you.

John and Greg, I wasn't trying to be arrogant at all with my question. I hope you didn't take it that way. There will be a 30 amp breaker ahead of the feeder.
The house that the feeder is coming from has already passed rough inspection. I didn't wire it. Most of the time I do work more than is required. That's why I ask these questions to make sure I'm meeting code. The inspectors here may not have even caught the 20 amp recepts. on a 30amp breaker, but because I want to do it right and they trust me, I try my best to do meet the code.

John, I did a job a few weeks ago, that your comment would certainly fit. I worked in a customer's yard where the sewage pump went bad and was overflowing in the yard. Had to work in it late one afternoon for about 3 hours and the next morning for about 4 hrs. I wished holding my nose would have done the trick. Thanks for all your comments..

How much load does he really need to serve in the RV when it is docked at home in the first place? My neighbor had a little pigtail that adapted the RV plug to a 5-15 and that was enough to run a lot of stuff.

Greg, He told me that he would never be using more than one outlet at a time. I think he is retired. He is going to have a work bench at the back of the building, but the recpts. are just for convenience, no constant load. Only real load will be for his RV. I don't have one, so I really don't know what will be working while plugged up. I guess to keep the refrig. etc. going while it is setting there? Think if it comes down to it, and the AHJ has a problem with it, I could put it all on a 20 amp, and see if that's enough to keep the RV going, unless he's going to be living in it or working in it while it's setting and needs the A/C and cooking equipment?

I doubt the AC will run on the single pole 30 anyway. You usually need the 240/50a connected for that.
Cooking is generally propane except for a microwave. You are left with a mini fridge, lights and the TV on most small RVs.
There are land yachts that barely get by on the 240/50.

I think this one has 2.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Bobs%20RV.jpg

Nice!!!

Hmmm, virtually all the RVs I have seen (except the celebrity calibre busses) utilize 120 volt AC units. The RVs that are 120/240- 30A-50A simply use both legs separately to power all of the loads, including the AC units which are 120, . This way they can still use at least one of the AC units when only 30A is availabble.

Here in Arizona everyone wants a 30 amp hookup for storage so they can run the AC when loading/unloading and cleaning.

That 30-A receptacle might LOOK like an older dryer pattern, but it's not. It's a non-NEMA pattern common to RV-hoohups, and is a 30-A, 120V receptacle.

There's usually a breaker protecting the receptacle. Most RV pedestals also tap off this 30-A circuit to feed a 15-A GFCI convenience receptacle.

You never have 240-V available.

For what the OP wants to do, he has two choices:
1) He can but an RV pedestal, and mount that in the locker; or,

2) He can mount the usual sub-panel, then use the available circuits to supply whatever circuits he wants. Sub-panel with GFCI breakers is the only way to protect a 30-A. 120-V circuit.

It's been my experience that you'll do better looking for RV parts at an RV place, than at the electrical supply house.

As for Greg's picture of the fuse-protected receptacle: Phooey on that! "S" adapters? Fuggadaboud it! Instead, get an Edison-base 15-A circuit breaker. UL-listed, distributed by Bussmann, find at Home Depot.

240.52 Edison-Base Fuseholders.
Fuseholders of the Edison-base type shall be installed only where they are made to accept Type S fuses by the use of adapters.

Greg - you have made the error so many make.

Your citation refers to FUSES, and the risk of over-FUSING, and has nothing to do with circuit breakers. Who sais the secion applies to everything with Edison bases? Maybe we need "S" adapters for light bulbs?


The definitive answer on this issue came when I raised it with the code panel- an their answer was that the section addressed fuses, and not circuit breakers.

I had proposed that 240.52 include language specifically mentioning Edison-base circuit breakers, and they saw no need. Put a breaker in, and now it's a "circuit breaker holder."

It does not say "fuse", it says "Fuse holder".
I will look at how that is wired (line to load, not line to neutral) and see it is clearly a fuse holder, not a lamp holder and apply that article.
There is also the listed use of the device in question.

Right. I tried that with the NEC code panel. They didn't buy it.

240.52's requirement for type "S" reducers applies only to fuses. It does not apply when breakers are used. That's the code panel reply, in rejecting my proposal.

Can't really trump their opinion.

We don't enforce the ROP, we enforce the code. The code says fuse holder and that is how that device is listed.

OK, Let's take it to the next step:

You step in front of the judge and say "The text reads "X" and to me this means such-and-such."

The appellant then steps in front of the judge and says "here's what the guys who wrote the rule say it means."

How do you think the judge would rule?

Nor does the listing of the device preclude the use of Edison-base breakers in the holder. Be kind of silly, wouldn't it, for UL to specifically evaluate a breaker that was designed to replace a fuse, then say that their listing forbade its' use. I seriously doubt that UL refunded the testing fees to Mechanical Breakers (the actual manufacturer), as UL continues to collect label fees from them.

The use of an Edison-base breaker to replace a fuse is a perfectly legitimate action. 240.52 does NOT require the use of type "S" reducers for breakers, only for fuses. That's the take of the code panel. UL, by its' actions, seems to agree.

I've had this discussion before. That's why I made the proposal. The result was the code panel indicating that your understanding is plainly incorrect.

I would have to agree with Greg, if you follow the wording exactly it says you may not install the fuseholder at all unless you are providing the adapter. Now the mini breakers will have to be made in "S" configurations.

If an Edison base breaker is installed, the socket is not a fuse holder and therefore not subject to 240.52.
Only, when a fuse is used to replace Edison based circuit breaker, would a type S adapter would need to be installed.

The Edison breaker can be used in "existing" fuse holders but if you are installing a new device it must conform to current code.

I believe the 'S' adaptors intent was to prevent overfusing, back in the day when plug fuses were the means of OCP.

S-fuse adaptors were 'truck stock' along with the S-fuses on service trucks. Heck, we had barrels full of edison base plug fuses, most were 20 & 30 amp.

Now, I have to ask, where could you locate a new plug fuse panel?? Other than the single one pictured.

My house in Maryland (built in 1971) had a SqD fuse panel and that was the last new one I ever saw. I think it had dust on it when they put it in.
It had aluminum wire too.

My neighbor had one with S adapters in it but they put SA-30 adapters in there so it had 30a fuses in every circuit, most 14ga wired.
I put 20s in all of them, not right, but better.
The insurance company finally forced her to replace the panel.