ECN Forum
Posted By: wewire2 Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 08:10 AM
Should a removable bollard be allowed in the required working space of a meter panel? I'm guessing it's up to the inspector since it's along the lines of placing a panel in a location encroached on by the door swing. What do you think?
Posted By: Tesla Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 11:24 AM
Absolutely not.

The switches in a panel need to always be accessible in emergency circumstances -- by non-electricians, to boot.

The time delay to remove a bollard is plainly enough to cause enhanced injury or death.

Indefensible in court, by the way.

In an exterior situation, such bollards are locked down with padlocks. The keys to which will only be 30 minutes away when seconds count.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 01:29 PM
The distance from the panel to the bollard has to be compliant with 110.26. Is the bollard in question blocking access to the OCP, or is access possible?
Let me get this straight, there is going to be a bollard in front of a panel, inside of the required working space? It is suppose to be removable? If you are working on the panel, you would remove the bollard before you start the work, leaving you the required workspace clearance. Right? That might be OK, but on the other hand, if there is an emergency, and you are trying to reach the panel to shut off something in a hurry, that bollard will block your access to the panel?
Posted By: twh Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 02:59 PM
Has anyone ever had to get to a panel in an emergency? This isn't a question of whether anyone could imagine needing to, but an actual emergency. I'm not questioning the working space. Just the emergency aspect.

Motors have controllers. Lights have switches. Computers have plugs. I think fire fighters kill the power outside.

I've been in restaurants where it takes 5 minutes to empty the room of janitorial supplies; in public buildings with locked panels and keys locked in someone's office; in office buildings in locked rooms only accessible to the maintenance staff who are all outside; locked in the MCC room so the production staff can't get to it; behind deep freezes, washers and dryers; and even places where no one knows where the panel is. Never have I heard, "dang, we could have saved ... if only that box wasn't in the way."

How about you?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 06:21 PM
My first thought is no.
I would have to see it but I might be able to say if you can open the panel cover easily and had plenty of room to access the breakers it might be OK. I would approach it skeptically tho.
I understand it is also important to protect the panel from physical damage. They would need a very compelling reason for the bollard to be there. Obviously having the bollards out past the limits of working space is what they should be doing.

The next question is how heavy is the bollard?
Would OSHA let one man pick it up? (<50 lbs) That could be the deal breaker.

There are 2 issues with working space
One is clear access to the breakers, the other is actual working space where you are away from any grounded objects when you have the dead front off.
My fear is that, even if this was easy to move, the worker might not do it and be firmly grounded with his hands in the hot panel. There are several safety violations there but we all know that sort of thing is common.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 09:12 PM
In the court room, foul-ups on the part of owners and staff don't bite the contractor -- nor soil the reputation of the AHJ.

The strangest dang things happen -- and then the litigation starts.

As a professional, you want your work to never be blamed for injury or death -- in court.

Towards that end, the NEC is you best defense.

The defense of:"I've never seen that before,..." is not going to cut it.

========

The typical, relevant, panic emergency is triggered by earthquakes/ tsunamis and collisions.

As the Sendai tsunami showed, all bets are off. Yet, you still, in that instance, had an opportunity to kill power before the sea came in -- and up.

Sandy is another instance of the slow build nightmare. Rather than waiting for the OCPD to trip, a wise person kills the power at the panel/ Service. In such circumstances, leaving things energized just makes conditions worse.

BTW, it's astonishing to think that the Japanese 'blew off' the significance of the (Richter 9.0) earthquake -- staying too casual -- even as the monster tsunami raced landward.

The quake was so strong that it threw people into the air -- and tossed moving trains clean off the tracks. (Entire trains went missing -- and into the ocean.) Even that was not enough to alert the common man.) Public warning claxtons were wailing straight on through, of course.

Sendai, Sandi -- and the Jonestown flood all show that false alarms and false security are lethal.

[We may be seeing a bizarre repetition of this phenomena WRT North Korea. Kim has everyone puzzled.]

Posted By: wewire2 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 09:30 PM
Greg, good point on the OSHA question. A little more info on this. The meter panel is a tag-on to existing switchgear and is fed via a 1200 amp main disconnect so it would be a redundant switch as far as killing all power to the building in an emergency. The bollard would be a 3" GRC with concrete fill. The customer is requiring the G.C. to install a bollard and they want it placed close and directly in front of the meter since the commercial driveway space is at a minimum. They are under the impression that if it is removable then it's OK. I couldn't find a sure answer in the NEC but as Tesla mentioned it doesn't seem like a good idea. Even if an inspector did pass it I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for a lawyer make a case if something unexpected happened. His opening statement would for sure include the words "readily accessible".
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 10:45 PM
Why not 2 bollards straddling the panel, 30+" apart. That would offer better protection and still keep the front of the equipment clear. I see this quite often in underground garages where parking is plenty tight.
You may still have the accessibility problems if someone is parked right up against the bollard.
Posted By: Tesla Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/05/13 10:57 PM
Greg's solution is the preferred one.

Also, be warry of punching bollard holes anywhere near panels that have underground feeders/ branch circuits.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 12:04 AM
The problem with having rules is that rules are static, and have no flexibility for particular circumstances. Safety? The very idea of 'safety' is a balancing of competing risks and managing losses.

The NEC recognizes this - as well as its' own legal limits - by referring matters back to the judgement of the AHJ. In the end, it's the responsibility of the AHJ, regardless of what some committee put down in a privately owned 'model' code.

The matter at hand is one classic such example. I am surprised that none of out 'urban' folks have yet posted a picture of such a situation as this thread describes. Let's imagine a fairly common arrangement:

A commercial panelboard placed outside, opening into a 'common' area, such as a drive or an alleyway, right on the property line. On either side of the panelboard is a bollard, with removable horizontal members spanning the distance between the bollards. Perhaps these pieces are held in place with bolts, or even padlocks.

Now, you have to ask: what's more likely? A catastrophic fire, and earthquake, or an errant delivery truck? Do you want to try to open an arcing cabinet whose doors have been pushed in by a few tons of Detroit iron? Do we want lesser damage to be left untended, letting weather and critters into the innards, as well as making the cabinet difficult to open?

I'd say a few pounds of structural iron in front of the gear is a very good trade-off. So what if you need tools and a key to make the gear accessible?

Remember - even if the gear is not obstructed in any manner, the NEC allows the mains to be locked "on" with the strongest chain and stoutest locks you can find. Code also allows this gear to be inside a locked room.

You really want a disconnect? Then mount a 'shunt trip' on the wall- but protect the gear!
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 01:11 AM
Electrical equipment that may be subject to physical damage requires protection. Metering equipment, CTs & MOCP also have to comply with our POCOs requirements; which are for the most part equal to NEC.

'Usual' protection consists of multiple bollards (4"-6" RGC) w/concrete, spaced to allow full frontal access, and required clearances. Rationalization is that a vehicle cannot fit thru a +/- 3' space between the bollards.

Equipment within active warehouses has either bollards, or 'guardrails' 4'6" from the face of the equipment. The bollard spacing is +/-2'6". All are designed by an Arch or Engineer. The guardrail type are accessed from openings at either end.

Reno:

You asked"I am surprised that none of out 'urban' folks have yet posted a picture of such a situation as this thread describes"

I'll try to get some pics this coming week, time permitting.

Posted By: wewire2 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 03:01 AM
Reno,your post exemplifies what I was originally getting at as far as inspector preference. Great example of how people/inspectors can view things from different angles.
I was reading a thread in another forum on panels behind door swings. Some of the inspectors liked the idea of the panel behind the door because it somewhat guaranteed that the space wouldn't be blocked by storage items. Others where totally against the idea.

Posted By: Scott35 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 05:24 AM
Quote

Why not 2 bollards straddling the panel, 30+" apart. That would offer better protection and still keep the front of the equipment clear.


Greg's quoted statement would also be my preferred option.
Placement of "Bollards" should allow for access, without becoming an issue for Live Testing.

If the Service Equipment is a typical Safety Socket, Bollard placement at 15" left/right of the Panel's Centerline would allow clearance and still protect from aggressive Forklifts.

wewire2;
Is this Project the SOW 300 Bldg.?
If so, there may be Design Specifics in the Project Manual which should be reviewed; and, if needed, submit an RFI.

--Scott (EE)
Posted By: wewire2 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 06:04 AM
Yo Scott! Still haven't heard a word about that project since it got mothballed. Landed a large commercial TI so things are looking better over here.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/06/13 06:24 PM
Scott:
I guess we agree on what I said as being compliant and providing protection?

It seems to me that anything can go as long as everything is normal. However once something bad happens, (Fire, someone gets hurt, etc) then everyone is at fault and to blame. Right down to the people who manufacture the bollard, and even the person who delivered it to the job site. They will all get sued and dragged into court.
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/16/13 05:53 AM
John;

Quote

I guess we agree on what I said as being compliant and providing protection?


Heck Ya!!! iagree

--Scott (EE)
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Removable bollards in working space - 04/16/13 01:26 PM
Scott:
Thanks!!! Now I feel better!!
© ECN Electrical Forums