Do you have any experiences related to the following?
Abandoned unused low energy cables of all types that are required to be removed because of their Fire Load covered in Chapters 7 and 8 in the NEC.
Do property inspectors call attention to this subject?
They used to gripe about the excess cables under computer room floors and above T bar ceilings is always a nightmare.
I am not sure I have ever heard anyone say anything about cables in walls and the answer was always to simply label them "future use/spare".
The problem is that most old wire is not suitable for modern communications.
It does get down to the fact that only sloppy wiring can be pulled out without damaging the building finish. If it was diligently strapped, it is not coming out.
'Old cabling' above t bar ceilings is routinely removed from most interior renovations of comm spaces.
Anything that is 'to remain' is made as compliant to code as possible. Usually, this is cabling to adjacent tenant spaces, and most was previously installed without inspections. I refer to this as "sins of the past".
As Greg implied, the majority of the 'existing' is very rarely re-used.
Word of caution! I asked a contractor to remove the unused communications wiring and he said he would over the weekend and he did. Monday morning I came in to the phone ringing off the hook that the people in the floor above the floor that was being remodeled were fit to be tied because their phones and computer system were out. I was the bad buy.
George:
I beg to differ....you were not the bad boy!
You would think with the abundance of lawyers we have here in NJ, I can't believe one of them didn't write that article!
To expand what I said above, all the responsible property owners & managers have been cleaning up 'sins of the past' since I arrived in the town in 2001. It took a little conversation, but afterward, it's all considered 'part of the renovation'. I've heard of a few issues as to what George had, and that may be 'murphys law. I once (as EC) had a total gut demo job; five minutes into cutting out the V/D cabling, here comes the local Fire Dept!! Cut the Fire Alarm telco line, even though 'MA Bell' techs assured us 'all lines are dead'! If I remember....that was about $500 to restore the line. That was the days of the 'Phone Company'!!
BTW, a few sparkies reaped quite a few $$$ with the V/D cabling at the scrap yards!
It may be different now but our scrap yard didn't want most data cable because there was so little copper for the amount of insulation and aluminum. They had a big plywood board with the price for various cables and the ones they didn't want at all. IBM Type 1 was on the "don't want" list as was the big 360/370 interface cables, most coax and modem cables.
Their favorite was bare, that is why they can't keep ground wires anywhere.
Greg:
Without going to far off the topic....do you remember 'Wang' data wire? Demo job in '80-'81 had loads of that; I saw two (2) van fulls go to the yard, & both come back real quick.
To what you posted above...the yards are taking V/D cabling now! I'll get some numbers in a day or two from the boys!
I suppose it depends on the type of wire. Something like bell wire or maybe even CAT 5 has a pretty good insulation to copper ratio but the kind you want out of a building the most is mostly insulation with a tiny amount of copper. A lot of this cable was not made with flame testing in mind either.
When we actually started looking at the cables we were stringing around the computer rooms IBM quietly started replacing cables about as fast as they could. Some of our old cables were down right scary in a place that was handling environmental air like a raised floor.
Everyone cheated on 645 and as the computers shrunk, the raised floor areas started becoming class A office space but still shared AC with a lot of computer room area. Of course the cube rats discovered all of that "wasted storage space" under their desk and all manner of flammable materials ended up under there.
"Remove abandoned wiring" is just one of those things that simply can't be addressed with a simple code change. Let me use a certain restaurant job to illustrate the point ...
This restaurant wanted to have "cable TV." Oddly enough, so did the last several owners of the restaurant.
Each time, the cable / satellite provider brought in his line, installed his dish, ran his cable across the rooftop. No matter that there were already several dishes installed; a new one got mounted.
Simply put, the guy was hired to bring in TV. He was not hired to remove the previous installs. "Ethics" and liability issues would discourage any attempts to use the previously installed equipment. It simply is not the responsibility of the new guy to remove the work of the previous guy.
Nor would this sort of thing ever get inspected. Even if it did, the inspector does not have the authority to tell the contractor to remove the other guys' work.
Multiply this by the multitude of phone, data, alarm, CCTV, sensor, sound system, etc., wires that folks string through theeir places. With technology changing every few years, you're guaranteed quite an assortment of cables.
Fact is, there's no telling what's in the walls without tearing the place apart. That's just not going to happen. It's not the sort of situation that lends itself to solution by regulation.
So, where is the solution? There really cannot be one, unless something changes that will make it to someones' advantage to remove the old cables.
An example of such an 'advantage' is the zeal with which old plumbing and power wiring is removed- with each increase in scrap prices. Another example is the way certain insulations are replaced with better ones, as heating bills increase.
Reno:
You make some valid points above. What I refer to as 'sins of the past' is installs that did not have permits/inspections; work usually done 'after Finals/CO' issuances.
The majority of your rooftop scenario would fall into the lap of the property manager/owner, as the previous tenant is long gone.
None of the Ecs dispute the 'clean-up' (interior) as it becomes an 'extra'. It brings whatever code compliance I can achieve, lightens the loads, and creates a cleaner work enviornment.
And the bonus is 'scrap $$$'!!
BTW, one of the ECs is really heavy into recycling. Troffer bodies, ballasts, removed HIDs, etc. And yes, he recycles the fluorescent lamps.
Another example: Who follows this rule from the NEC here; see the notes:
830.24 Mechanical Execution of Work. Network-powered
broadband communications circuits and equipment shall be
installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables installed
exposed on the surface of ceilings and sidewalls shall be supported
by the building structure in such a manner that the
cable will not be damaged by normal building use. Such
cables shall be secured by hardware including straps, staples,
cable ties, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
as not to damage the cable. The installation shall also conform
to 300.4(D) and 300.11.
Informational Note No. 1: Accepted industry practices are
described in ANSI/NECA/BICSI 568-2006, Standard for Installing
Commercial Building Telecommunications Cabling;
ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.1-2004 — Part 1 General Requirements
Commercial Building Telecommunications Cabling
Standard; ANSI/TIA-569-B-2004, Commercial Building Standard
for Telecommunications Pathways and Spaces;
ANSI/TIA-570-B-2009, Residential Telecommunications Infrastructure;
and other ANSI-approved installation standards.
Informational Note No. 2: See NFPA 90A-2009, Standard
for Installation of Air-Conditioning and Ventilating Systems,
for discrete combustible components installed in accordance
with 300.22(B) and (C).
Reno has a good point. The cables abandoned by the old cable company are probably still the property of that company but they don't want it and I bet, without legislation requiring it, they are not coming back to pull them out.
When I asked Comcast about the existing cables on my house they said they were leaving them "for my convenience" in case I went back to them. No they were not sending a tech out to take them down.
I bet if I hooked up a couple TVs to the raw cable, they would be over here right away. (the Dmark is disabled by software but everything is still connected). I am thinking about cutting the drop as far up as I can reach and letting them deal with the "ingress" problems.
Greg:
I switched from cable to Fios. I disconnected and returned the boxes and converters to the local cable office, basically to stop the billing. They sent a tech the same day to disconnect at the pole, and he was nice enough to remove the drop & exterior splitter & ground.
I guess if someone paid for the techs time, they would remove whatever interior coax that was 'theirs'.
Coax in office space is usually gone with the demo, as the new occupants all install new systems.
They sent a guy to pick up the cable modem but nobody did anything with the TV stuff. I didn't have a cable box.
When my wife switched from Comcast to DirectTV at the club they didn't take out any wire.
From what I have been reading on some of the telephone tech forums, when fiber is installed to the house the telco comes out to pull the copper drop from the house.
As I understand it, there is an agreement with subscriber that when the copper drop is taken from the building they can't ever reinstall it to that address.
The telco's like that agreement because copper is a regulated price service and fiber telephone is not regulated.
That seems to be true from what I am hearing too.
They are getting my POTS phone when the state/FCC lets them stop providing dial tone. It is still just about the only utility I can really count on.
Reno has a good point. The cables abandoned by the old cable company are probably still the property of that company but they don't want it and I bet, without legislation requiring it, they are not coming back to pull them out.
further, why write code for those who are not held to it?
~S~
Mbhydro:
The same scenario re: the POTS (copper) telco was going on here in NJ, but I cannot attest to the truth of that.
They (Fios) brought a fiber line to my house, and I still have the copper drop intact. It may have been 'cut' somewhere in the telco infrastructure, but it still is there. The tech connected the existing telco to the new fiber 'box' on the house side, checked all the lines & that was it for voice.
~s~:
We make mention to the various PMs, landlords, owners, etc., that the 'sins' have to be corrected, and to my knowledge all the ECs get 'extra' for the removal or 'clean-up'.
Fair is fair. 99% of the time there is no argument. It may take a 'red' sticker the 1st time!!
~s~:
We make mention to the various PMs, landlords, owners, etc., that the 'sins' have to be corrected, and to my knowledge all the ECs get 'extra' for the removal or 'clean-up'.
Fair is fair. 99% of the time there is no argument. It may take a 'red' sticker the 1st time!!
the 'ol 'not my job' shtick....
~S~
~s~:
I guess you could kinda go with that theory. Now, you mean 'renovation', not 'Reno', right? (LOL)
I should add that the 'major players', both ECs and PMs/LLs all know the drill by now.
When I do inspections on old buildings with new tenant fit ups, I always ask the EC to "Try" to remove as much old wire as possible. Most times the EC's are very willing to work with me ( sometimes it is an extra for the job) plus it gets rid of a lot of old crap in there way. For the most part it looks a whole lot better when I go back for my "Above Ceiling" inspection. Granted they can't get rid of all of the old wires, cause some cut through other secure areas in the building.