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Posted By: George Little Feeder running through building - 11/20/10 01:06 AM
A fellow inspector called me and asked if it was permissible to run a feeder through a strip mall inside the building having it pass through multiple rental suites before terminating in a sub-panel. I answered yes and I used 225.37 (08 NEC) as my code reference. Got to thinking about it afterwards and wonder if I gave him good information. Article 225 is for Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders. However, it clearly talks about passing through a structure and the requirements associated with it. Is there another code reference that might apply? Article 215 says nothing about this scenario.

225.37
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Feeder running through building - 11/20/10 03:45 AM
George:
The issue is the accessability to the feeder in the event that repair/replace/service is needed, and being able to disturb/disrupt/infringe, etc on the adjacent tenant spaces to perform same. In some comm properties I worked at (as EC) the landlord had a clause within the lease that granted access for any service work for the adjacent/other tenants. What legal hat they hung that on I don't know; but it worked!

Without doing a lot of reading, I cannot put an NEC Article on this that is concrete. There have been many debates at meetings, but no articles.

Resi condos have the feeders run thru the common corridors. Most (if not all) feeders in our mall are thru the service corridors and/or common areas. The last two multi bldg apt complexes had all feeders thru common areas by design.

Let's see if anyone here has any input.

I must say you offer up all very interesting subjects!!!
Posted By: George Little Re: Feeder running through building - 11/20/10 11:07 PM
Hey Greg, what's your spin on this subject? You have a lot of contacts and I'm sure you know we all respect your comments.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 12:32 AM
I am not sure if I have seen blood on the floor but I have seen big fights over this. I think there may have even been one or two here. It usually centers around the wiring method and what a "building" is.
The concerns go all the way from access to a fault to theft of services.
I am not sure I have seen a code cite that does not require a lot of bending and cocking your head.
"Is it subject to <fill in the blank> damage?"
Construction type may fit in.
"Is this a litigious town?"

Etc

That's why you make the big bucks wink
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 01:00 AM
"Single management?"
That may make a difference but we know that is a real estate condition that can change.
Posted By: George Little Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 01:17 AM
Thanks Greg and John, I can understand there being security issues and contractual issues but what I see so far is a lack of electrical code issues. So I guess as an electrical inspector, I can't write a violation.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 01:53 AM
As my CBO at the state used to tell me, "just make it safe".
Posted By: Niko Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 09:33 AM
I don't do installations in strip malls but like to know, as long as it is a straight shot from the sub panel to the main, what is the problem of running feeder through another tenant's ceiling.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 03:12 PM
Niko:
As Greg said above, there's no NEC direct guidance on this type issue, but some Articles that can 'lean' toward it.

With comm jobs most issues seem to deal with future access to the 'space' the feeders may run through. That revolves around the wiring methods installed. Raceway thru space, end to end, no boxes, condulets, etc., I see no basis for any argument. The jobs installed in MC cable, or other allowed cabling are where the access comes into discussion. Some landlords include a clause within the lease for access, but that's a legal issue, not NEC directly related.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 05:37 PM
I've looked over my notes from the past upmteen years, and having the feeder pass through another tenant's space doesn't happen very often.

It's an interesting pattern; most often the gas, phone, data, and every other kind of line runs in a straight shot over everyone's ceiling, but the feeders are most often under the slab.

Where I've found the feeders passing through other spaces, there has invariably been quite a history of remodels and shifting spaces.

I have seen local codes that required all feeders (from the meter to the panel) to be in some form of pipe.

I fear that all this discussion has accomplished is to give the code-changers yet another opportunity to intrude on what has been a design issue. With their desire to 'conform' to all manner of other codes, they seem determined to address all manner of non-electrical matters.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 05:45 PM
Where this seems most troubling is in town houses or duplexes, running through the attic.
I have never seen it but the example presented was meter mains on one end of the building feeding the units via the attic using a cable.
I don't remember where the thread was but if I get a few minutes I will see if it is still up.
Posted By: KJay Re: Feeder running through building - 11/21/10 08:22 PM
I was working in a relatively new condo complex a while back and in the basement of the first unit behind the meter stack, I noticed all the SER’s for the other individual units running right through the floor joists above, so apparently there’s no code issue with that here either.
With commercial, I think almost all would be in conduit around here anyway, so power theft might be at least a little more difficult. I suppose all they would need to do is cover the conduits with 2” of concrete and it would be considered outside the building.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Feeder running through building - 11/22/10 02:37 AM
That was kind of the thrust of the conversation. The feeder would be an attractive target for a power thief and the danger presented by the flying tap is sizable.
The best you could hope for would be a Kupltap and worst case would be a hose clamp and duct tape.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Feeder running through building - 11/22/10 03:43 PM
Greg,


I have seen a lot of those feeders running through attics in the condos around here. Like everyone else is saying, not fond of it, but can't fail it.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Feeder running through building - 11/23/10 02:13 AM
Harold:
The condo developement that is on the last bldg (22 units each) has each units feeder run thru the common hallways, and the risers are thru a common chase to the second & third floors.

The feeders thru the common hallways are installed within the truss type floor joists, fire/draft stopped at all penetrations, and then one layer of 5/8 FC shtrk is installed on the bottoms of the joists. Framing is then installed (8" drop) and the sprinkler lines, HVAC and any other items are mounted in this space, and the bottom is rocked w/ 5/8". The common chase mentioned above is 5/8 rock inside & out.

There are no feeders in the truss attics, only required lighting & radon fans.

Now, the 'old' buildings.....that's another story....
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