Existing Junction Box with service wires 3/350mcm 3 phase 480 volt, out of that feeds Fire pump controller , then seperate run to another service disconnect.
They want to add transfer switch & generator.
Can one transfer switch be used for both
Fire pump controller & control power panel?
generator sizing ? (remember Fire Pump)
125 hp 3 phase. 480
10kva Transformer for misc. 480/120/240v 1phase

yoopersup

Hi Yoop.
695.6(F). says ..fire pump controller and fire pump transfer switch,where provided,shall not serve any load other than the
fire pump for which it is intended.

same generator is fine.
Now the can of worms. That generator now becomes 'Emergency' power.Not standby.Now comes all the documentation of all testing and maintenance requirements.

Yoop:
IMHO, the first person would be an EE/PE or qualified Architect, who should be well versed with gensets, transfer switches and fire pumps. The second person would be the local AHJ, both electrical and fire.

As Le said, 695.6 (F); and the gen/trans become legally required, not optional systems. (I think those are the right terms)

695- covers the fire pump and associated equipment.
pay close attention to 700, 701 and 702.
Emergency,legally required and optional standby- respectively.

Building codes and others start to play a big role the higher the importance of the back up.

EE/PE or Qualified Architect. Ya right. Look at most the prints out today. Hard to find anyone well versed on Fire pumps ect/ Lotta genertic answers & look in code book.
This is a Township pump. 30 hp 480 volt takes care of business unless they have a fire somewhere in township that lowers water pressure , then Fire pump kicks on to maintain pressure. One service to remote building & there adding backup Generator.
Not a Normal Job.
Yoopersup

Yoop:

"then Fire pump kicks on to maintain pressure."
By definition, that sounds like a pressure maintenance (Jockey) pump, and not a fire pump.

IMHO, as you say this is a Twp. pump, they should be giving you the specs for what they want/require. The 'spec' & drawings by a PE/EE/Arch are required to get plan review approvals (based on NEC) and permits issued.

This also relieves you of any liability for the 'design', unless you have DB coverages and do the design.

The ATS has to be UL Listed for Fire Pump Duty.
A regular garden variety ATS won't cut it.
Generally it's bought as a built-in component of the FP Controller.

30 hp Pump maintains normal Pressure, 125 Hp pump kicks on only when theres a high draw like fire. Right now 125 Hp on Fire Pump controller But it does not have transfer switch.
#0 hp not Jockey pump & 125 hp sure not Jockey pump.

When I think of fire pumps I think about a system designed to carry the pump in locked rotor until it either frees up and starts working again or until the motor burns up.
I assume transfer equipment should be sized that way too.

I agree & for buildings that require Fire pumps thats always the case. I;m wondering if this by definition is really a Fire Pump as its at a Township pumping station & servers the main water system. Like I said a 30hp takes care of Business unless something like a fire drawing large amouts of water. All the controls in the building are required to operate the System. Little different from average I run into.
Yoopersup

Yoop:
Reading what you say above^, that's probably not a fire pump by NFPA definition, but a pressure maintenance pump.

If you are comfortable with a design/build IMHO sizing the gen & trans switch for the existing load(s) would be the way to go. A gen mfg rep could assist in sizing the gen and trans switch, along with a complete spec book, if the Twp requires it.

Pre-Warning: This is a long winded message!

Yoopersup's Project, as described, is not like any Fire Pump Design / Build I have ever dealt with!; i.e., the Primary Pump & Motor, along with the Pressure Maintenance Pump(s) - AKA "Jockey Pump(s)", are only in use during an Emergency Event.

Nevertheless, this Project does include an Emergency related item, designated for Fire Extinguishing usage, so the Design approach would be similar to any other Fire Pump with an Emergency Power source.



I would believe the related Equipment, connected through a single ATS, with a "Dedicated" Emergency Generator driving the Equipment during an outage, will be compliant.
Include the existing 30 HP Pump Motor in this Equipment list too.

I suggest to first propose the Design concepts stated in the opening post, to Building & Fire Departments for comments, then go from there. Include a Single Line Drawing for references.

This will give you an idea of what to expect.

The Genny Projects I have done always started with Building & Fire Department Staff (to obtain the specifics and code requirements).
Once the specifics are known, next stop is the Planning Division, for the required items per Planning.
Typically, Planning will request images and drawings of the surrounding areas, to determine screening, access, etc., so if you are preparing documents (Plans and Specs), be sure to include the stuff for Planning Division separate to the documents for Building and Fire.

A list of typical documents:

A: Planning Division.

• Scaled Site Plan
• Location Plan (area with Genset)
• Pictures of surrounding area + access points, and closest streets
• Cut sheets for proposed Genset (supplied by vendor). contains elevation drawings, EPA details, Fuel Tank information, specifications, enclosure details, and etc.

B: Building Department Plan Check...

Same as listed in "A", along with:

• Concrete Pad details
• Load / Seismic Calcs for Anchors
• Electrical Single Line, Load Calcs & Panel Schedules
• Electrical Plan(s)
• ATS specifications

C: Fire Department Plan Check...

Same as listed in "A", along with:

• Fuel Tank details
• Pad details describing containment area / curbing
• Fuel refilling equipment and locations
• HAZMAT signage layout drawings + details

..........................................................


The following is some information per the equipment sizing (FYI)

Sizing of Equipment:

1. Generator...

a: 125 HP 480V 3 Phase Motor = 129.6 KVA,
b: 30 HP 480V 3 Phase Motor = 33.2 KVA,
c: Control System Transformer = 10.0 KVA

Total KVA: 172.8 KVA (figure at 173 KVA).

A 175 KW Genny has an Apparent Power rating of 219.0 KVA, at 0.8 Power Factor.
This will cover all three loads at rated capacity.

Next larger size Genny would be 200 KW, with an Apparent Power rating of 250.0 KVA, across a Power Factor of 0.8 (80%).

-----------------------
-----------------------

2. ATS...

ATS will need to be sized per the total LRA (Locked-Rotor Amperes) of the connected Equipment.

The 125 HP Motor would have minimum LRA of 936 Amps.
The 30 HP Motor would have minimum LRA of 240 Amps.
Total LRA = 1176 Amps.

Minimum capacity for the ATS is 1200 Amps (along with the Service capacity for this setup).

___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________


Long-Winded Warning...
The following relates to oversize generator capacity and Generator basic operation, which may be dismissed.


********** Oversize Genny for extended Locked-Rotor Compensation **********

Genny (Generator) capacity for LRA of both Motors:
LRA for the 30 HP Motor and the 125 HP Motor combined = 1176 Amps.
Locked-Rotor KVA = 935.0 KVA.
Including the Control Transformer: 945.0 KVA.

800 KW Genny has Apparent Power capacity of 1,000 KVA at 0.8 Power Factor.

Debate if Genny capacity must include Locked-Rotor KVA, and at what Percentage (25%, 50%, 100%).
I would like to discuss this issue, in detail.

Motors at Locked-Rotor do draw high Amperes; but do they draw equivalent HP; more precisely, up to 600% more KW s, than the rated Horsepower's input true Power - in KW.

Simply stated, does a 125 HP Motor draw > 468 KW from the Supply at Locked-Rotor (or from Locked-Rotor to a stablized output speed), or is the input KW max'd out around 78 KW.
The Apparent Power may easily be in the 750 KVA range at Locked-Rotor, that is because the Power factor is so extremely low.


Some Building Departments are fine with Gennys at +25% the full load, others want the Genny to cover the full Locked-Rotor draw - in KVA, which translates to a very large Prime Mover + Alternator for the Genset.
This also brings in a larger Fuel Tank, Pad base, Enclosure, etc.

Generators produce Kilo Watts, which translates to usable Horsepower at the shaft of the connected Electric Motor.
The Prime Mover (for example, the Diesel Motor driving the connected AC Alternator), is sized in Horsepower, equivalent to the Kilo Watt Output rating of the Genset (complete Generator apparatus).
Exceeding the KW rating of the Alternator causes the Prime Mover to "Bog Down", but not stall.

A Genset will produce rated output KW (some up to 130% rated KW), and that is it!
The HP rating of the Prime Mover limits the total output, so once that value has been met, that is all you get!

A good example:

Short Circuit the output of the Alternator, by creating a 3 Phase Bolted connection (physically bolt all 3 phases together).
Start the Prime Mover. The Prime mover will run at full speed, developing close to rated HP, but will not stall.

All comments are welcome.

Scott

Thank you Scott,good read.

I've installed several Service rated Fire Pump controllers with the Transfer Switch built in & they've never been rated for Locked Rotor current.The Code says in 695.3 B(1)
Generator Shall be sufficient capacity to allow normal starting & running of the Motor(s) driving the fire pump(s)
while supplying all Other simultaneously operatered load. Over current protective devives Shall be permitted to be sized per 430.62 (695.4 B )
Now if there was just a Utility service Then I agree Disconnect sized per 696.4 B (1)
The service never has to be rated for LRC just the disconnect switch.
See NEC Code Handbook notes after 695.4(B) Page 1094 .

Yoopersup

Final question as I see it.

Is this a 'Fire pump'?

From following this post I would say not.
It may help Betty get a better shower,and inadvertently help the fire dept.

Le:
I'm wondering that also & still....

I'm of the thought that a 'FP' basically just sits around in the event of a fire (other than testing). And the 'jockey/pressure maintenance' pump activates to maintain the required minimum water pressure for a wet sprinkler system.

Yoop's description sounds like a domestic pressure system that kicks up the pressure for a 'high draw' on a domestic water system.

That all said, IMHO a design pro (EE/PE/Arch) should be involved with the plans & specs.

30hp pump keeps tank filled ,
125 hp pump only kicks on in High draw sitution:
such as Fire in a Township building, ect.
all controls in pump hse inter tied together.
350 amp 480 volt currently feeding building.
Direct feed not thur fuses to FP controller.
Just not the run of the mill FP installtion.

Personally, I would let the AHJ TELL you what type of pump this is.

Then go from there.

Leland
And where in the Code does the AHJ get that info???
Yoopersup

Kinda seems like a funky situation.
My suggestion was for the AHJ to 'define' what this pump is.
Then handle it accordingly.

Here is mt 2 cents (for what ever it is worth)

The AHJ would figure out what kind of a pump it is by the design engineer. What's that, no design? Then get an EE to design something for this project so that we can do a plan review of this project. We are the AHJ's but we do not do design the work.

I agree AHJ does not make the call, But now if engineer does where does he get the info to make that call. Remember its not a stand alone building. Its a Township Water pumping station. There all over the country.
Yoopersup

Sounds like the Township Engineer, Water Dept. Head, or possibly a consulting hydrostatic engineer should be qualified.

Bottom line:

Not your problem. Above your pay grade.
Let the powers decide.
I can see this project getting started in the next 10 years.
QUICK, PUNT !!! Then politely ask them to call you.

Or treat it like a fire pump and spend all your time and money to finally not get the job.

I'm still trying to figure if this is for 'real' or a mind bender.

Personaly, I would like/let them (the powers),TELL ME what this pump is.


My opinion: It is a make up water pump for general usage..

Any other use is purely coincidental.

John,

When I was still in business, I worked for several towns, and I know how cheap they can be. I have also be called on to "design" something for a town. I questioned the town once about a new above ground gas tank and I was waiting for the Fire Subcode to get back to me on where to place the emergency stop button. By the time he got back to me, I lost the job, the town didn't think I was interested in it. I told them the where the Fire Subcode wanted that stop button could make a big difference in the price of the job. Oh Well!

So far tons of opions but no answers????
Yes it is a real sitution.
Common in Many parts of the Country.
Who makes that Decision.
Not Township (there asking Question)
Engineer (Where does he get the Answer)
Powers?? (What powers)
Inspector plan Review ( Does he have reference to consult) or just go by whats on drawings??(U know there not always right.
Like I said probally same sutution most towns.

I would say that either the AHJ or the Engineer should tell you if it's a regular pump or a Fire Pump.

How they will determine it is irrelevant...once they do, your butt will not be the one in the sling.
The AHJ has bosses to answer to and the Engineer is generally legally liable for whatever he decides.

In either event, you're just installing the thing to the standards that you were told to install it to; so any future fingerpointing shouldn't end up pointing at you.

We have called for and have had installed similar pumps in a fire pump situations. So here is a possible understanding of this situation and a way to make a proper judgement call if you are in that AHJ position.

Our pump setups were such that you had the regular fire pump, but because the domestic water could not keep up with fire demand (such as a well or end of a limited domestic supply and you don't want to collapse the water lines by pumping to hard), or if the system is required to have an antifreeze due to winter time shutdown of the facility (yes, I know of the UL bulletin on cease and desist these types of systems while they investigate), a secondary storage tank with an air break is needed (avoids cross contaminations). So a pump that cannot keep up with fire flow, but with the storage of the tank can for the required time (figured out by someone else) is installed. This pump must be treated as a fire pump as it is a required part of the fire sprinkler system.

So look at the pumps purpose, if it is an integral part of the fire proetection system, even if seeming ancillary, treat it the same as a fire pump.

I hope that this doesn't cloud the waters.

Shane

Shane:
If I read you correctly, a set of plans with all the required info/data, by a design professional should be the first or second thing BOTH the AHJ, and the prospective EC's all 'see'.

It may be in the OPs case that there are no plans, specifications, and the Twp is looking for something on an 'unofficial design/build' situation.

In my experience, jobs such as this that go in the general direction of 'design/build' tend to be a way for the Owner to shift the blame to someone else if something is done wrong.
I would expect that someone with "more skin in the game" tell me what this pump is. Then I can get it installed per the proper Codes with no further direction from them.
I don't want to treat it as a standard motor and get nailed a few years down the road when the building burns down with some hotshot saying that it was MY fault because it didn't wire it per NEC 495...or go full boat and get unpaid when I send a bill because I went overboard when all that they wanted was a plain motor installation.
This could get pretty sticky either way.

Good points, I forgot that there were no plans. Thanks for the correction.

Shane

Shane:
IMHO, the OP has no information, nor direction from the client/customer. The 'wire this' (hook-up) approach kind of leads me to believe that $$$ is an issue for a design pro.

I mean no offense to Yoop, but getting involved with a D/B job, without the required (here in NJ) license for the 'D' part & the insurance for the 'D' part would be a bad choice. Permit applications for the Twp. I work in must comply with all requirements (plans by lic design pro) & specs, just like any other application.

Design pro or not nobody seems to know the answer or even where to look for it. Kinda interesting. (I used to carry a New Jersey masters License Hard test).Droped it when I retired.

Yooper-
Here's your original post:

Existing Junction Box with service wires 3/350mcm 3 phase 480 volt, out of that feeds Fire pump controller , then seperate run to another service disconnect.
They want to add transfer switch & generator.
Can one transfer switch be used for both
Fire pump controller & control power panel?
generator sizing ? (remember Fire Pump)
125 hp 3 phase. 480
10kva Transformer for misc. 480/120/240v 1phase

Now as I see it the job is in violation before you even touch it. Fire pump must have it's own Service or Xformer. If they want a Generator that's great but don't combine it with the rest of the loads. Check with the local inspector, submit plans for proposed generator/transfer switch etc. and let the AHJ give you direction.

Existing Junction box With Service conductors (before any disconnects)(695.3 A (1). (ahead of but ot within same cabinet.) This is located in remote Pumphouse one room.
All the rest of Loads just about required to keep pumping station running Including Fire pump. Remember Water System not single building. Fire pump for Lack of Pressure.
If from utility Company transformer where do you get seperate Transformer??? Seperate Service yes Transformer???

Yoopersup,


It seems like you are going to be caught between a rock and a hard place. If you brought that design to my town, I would ask you to get a letter from an EE signed and sealed telling me exactly what the design is about. Then I would compare what he wrote to the NEC and see if it meets code. My state (NJ) will allow EC's to design electrical systems for 1 & 2 family houses but not for large industrial jobs. That would have to be designed by an engineer. I wouldn't want to be the one to have to "Name" this project. Engineers get paid good money to design projects like this, they are the people to design it.

I know it must be designed, I know it must go through plan review, But seems to me theres a lot of inspectors & qualified people that are on this site that might be reviewing prints such as theses.So I take then that they take it for granted what ever the designer puts on the prints well pass????Since all I get for answers is Ask the engineer?? There must be Tons of similar pump unit set ups like this all over the Country.
When this comes up for Plan Review Where well the Plan Reviewer go for the answer???
Yoopersup

Yoop

"But seems to me theres a lot of inspectors & qualified people that are on this site that might be reviewing prints such as theses"

FWIW, I have not had to review anything as you describe.

Fire Pumps (and I have reviewed many) have individual POCO service, none have included a genset.

"So I take then that they take it for granted what ever the designer puts on the prints well pass????"

Yes, it will 'pass', as long as it is compliant with the adopted NEC. On average, for Plan Review, 3 to 5 rejection letters are generated every week. Design professionals are, like you and I, human...and we all make mistakes.

"When this comes up for Plan Review Where well the Plan Reviewer go for the answer???"

The 2008 NEC, for the Electrical design (edit to add "CODE COMPLIANCE"), and pass plans on to the Fire Subcode Official for his NFPA Code compliance review & comments.(edit to add hydrostatic design compliance)

Fire Pumps for Buildings easy, Add a Generator Same.
I know what NEC says about Buidings (Keep it seperate, Rated fire pump controller ect. Fire Pump service Seperate , from Regular service ect. Its all there 696 nec.
But this is Different as I said,Its a Township water supply (not stand alone building) One building Remote, Two pumps tied to control system thats tied to water tower tank,all
interconnected Second pump only when high demand (such as Fire in township area fed by pumping station,) as Tank not large enought..So if you put a Firepump Controller in & Generator starts, Without other controls for pumphouse on Generator Then What.
Am I making this to confusing??
By the Way the NEC is not a design Manual .& most Fire Code officals know Nothing about Electrical.

Yoop:
I added a few missing words/phrases to my above comments.

IMHO, you have a water pump, not a fire pump per say. There is no reason that I'm aware of that you cannot put the pump and support equipment on a genset.

Where/Why does the 'Fire Pump Controller' come into the picture?

Did someone ask for or specify a Fire Pump Controller?

edit to add.....

I would go back up to Scott's reply, use his scenario, but I would 'bump' the gen up to 250KW, as from my experience as an EC, working for a few different Twps, they always find something else to 'add-in'

Where the Fire Pump controller came in, Is theres one there now, An Old outdated across the line one. It must be replaced . Now Generator is to be added. since Old FP controller Must be replaced (if required to be FP rated?) & a back up Generator added. Generator no matter what must be sized to Start 125Hp under Head load. Theres a lotta good Minds wondering about this one. Thats why I was wondering how this has been handled across the country. Soft Start, VFD, or multi pumps instead of one larger one also interesting options. Just thought with all theses Great Electrical minds in one place this be a Snap.
I am here like all others to Learn.
Yoopersup

Hi Yooper.

I was just sneaking around the NFPA site.
If this is truly a 'Fire pump'.
Check out NFPA 20- 4.3.2 "system designer"

This takes you off the 'design' hook.
By definition,you are not qualified to design.
(respectfully and technically)

By NO MEANS should this be taken out of context,please!

Thats one way of avoiding dealing with a Question isn't it.
I;m licensed for Plan review so I can approve or deny plans for approval but not design them. In michigan you can if you get a Engineer to sign off on them there fine.
I just asked a Question but so far no answer.
Lets go back to what color is a green ground screw right. Lot easier to deal with. (respectfully)
(I used to carry a Masters from your state years back.)

Hi yooper,
With respect to your considerable electrical experience and knowledge (some of it obtained by hard lessons) there are several things that I think you should consider:

First of all, some members on the site are showing concern for the risk that they see you attempting to take on. I believe that we electricians offer a very valuable service to our communities, because we care about the safety of our fellow citizens and because we collectively know a lot about a very dangerous utility. And we know that it can cause a lot of harm if unleashed or not properly designed and controlled. The recent Detroit residential fires come to mind, for example. So we are worried that you will place yourself at risk of doing something outside of the area that you are insured for. What if your design build system fails at a crucial moment? What if expensive or harmful things are attributed to something that you did? Would it not be better for you to offer to sit on a committee that helps to hire a qualified design firm for the city? Your knowledge would then be invaluable to the process, without you putting yourself in harms way.

The second thing I would like to say is that you are asking for design information from the members here that we are for the most part unable to provide, because we just do not know. Hydraulic systems are just as complicated to design as electrical systems. For this reason, design professionals who work in this field are specialists who contract with utilities or cities. They also carry very expensive insurance to protect them and their companies in case they are found (either correctly or incorrectly) to be responsible for a major malfunction which causes someone harm. Are you willing to do this design-build and take on such risk?

Homer