Been a while since I've done a new home. Are outlets that are installed on a kitchen "island" required to be on a GFI if it is over 6ft. from the sink?? thanks... Steve

All receptacles that serve a counter top, it has nothing to do with the sink.

to many smart electricians moving the receptacle 6ft 1 in

GFCI protection actually goes beyond the idea of just "water". In the kitchen you are going to be using a lot of hand held appliances which can put the user in the fault path and there is always that pesky fork in the toaster problem.

Water never was a consideration but the fact that the piping to the sink presented a source to ground the idea was that short appliance cords and a persons reach would fall within the six foot.

Hey Greg- Hate to pick on you but, what's the fork in the toaster problem? Toasters don't have to be grounded. When is the last time you saw a domestic toaster with a ground prong on the cap? The metal parts of a toaster are not grounded.

That is exactly the problem George. When you stick the fork in there to dislodge the toast you can energize the whole case. If you have the GFCI it should trip if the user is in the fault path to ground. I understand in a stick built house with a vinyl floor there may not be an effective ground path without the plumbing (that might be plastic anyway) but here we have slab on grade with terrazzo or tile floors and that is an excellent ground path. I suppose if you always wear shoes it is not a problem but the first night in this house I found the defective ground electrode system when I touched the cook top (among other things). I am not sure exactly what the problem was but it sure woke me up.
The next day I was putting in GFCIs, tightening up stuff in the panel and driving new rods.

Got to argue with you Greg, I've been told by people who I considered to be in the know that that's exactly why they don"t ground the frame of a toaster. Most people use a fork to retrieve a piece of toast or muffin from the toaster. It's a pretty safe bet they could get the fork between the energized part and the frame of the toaster. Since the frame is not grounded- no harm.

Is the fork energized? Is the user holding it? Is the user grounded? There is your fault path.

Energizing the case of the toaster with the fork just makes it more likely the user could come in contact with an energized part, even if the fork had an insulated handle.

At this point the only thing that can save the user is not having a path to ground anywhere on their body.

I noticed on the wifes new toaster you can push the lever up to raise the toast out of the slot

I just bought a new toaster & it has the levers that you can 'push-up' to get the toast out. Housing is plastic on sides, metal at top.

BTW, I used to 'eject' the toast by pushing up the lever really fast on the old toaster, until it stopped working!

Well Greg, There must be a reason why they don't ground toasters. I agree with your train of thought about the path taken for an electrical shock. I agree that all things working properly, the GFCI would prevent one from a lethal shock, but there is one thing we both know " you can protect the fool, but you can't protect the damn fool". Anyone who is stupid enough to stick a metal object into an electrical appliance without unplugging it is a "damn fool". I believe the main reason for not grounding the metal parts of a toaster and many other appliances is because of the realistic possibility of somehow getting into a polarity issue and ending up with a hot metal part setting on the counter next to the sink or other grounded surface. I respect your comments and have always enjoyed the banter your offer.

As a side note you could do what I do when an english muffin don't pop up high enough to grab with my fingers, I flip the lever that John mentioned and the muffin actually flies out of the toaster.

Just get some VDE rated 1000V cutlery.

Problem solved.

{runs and hides}

I have never been sure why they don't ground a lot of things. I suspect it started as backward compatibility for homes with 1-15 receptacles and then simply became a cost issue. If they can get away with a two wire zip cord and 1-15 plug, that is what they use. Ungrounded, metal lamps amaze me too.
If I was the king, everything that wasn't double insulated, would be grounded.

Greg,
I have to agree with you here.
I fail to see how a toaster of all things can be designated as "Double Insulated".
Double insulation as it is stated down here, is where "any live parts of the appliance or parts that could become live due to abnormal operation are encased with basic insulation and that insulation is not accessible without use of a tool"
I've never seen a toaster down here that is not earthed, as opposed to double insulated.
I think in this situation the term double insulation is being abused.
That is only my opinion though.

I agree there is not an easy way to make a double insulated toaster. Most other kitchen appliances seem fairly well insulated but I haven't seen any listed as "double insulated".
That is very common with hand tools tho but they also were the things that usually came with 3 wire cords.

The toaster we had when I was a kid would shock you every so often so we would unplug it before retreiving the toast.

Getting back to the original question, I think all kitchen counter top receptacles are GFCI because of the number of hand held appliances you use there. I suppose we could go back to the ROP and see what the thinking was. It really showed up in 93. The 90 code still has the "6' from the sink" language but it does say the intent is to only exempt the fixed in place equipment in a FPN.
I think I still have the 93 ROP spinning on a disk somewhere but I don't see it right now. My hard copy library is packed in boxes because of the renovation.

Toasters are not grounded because a fault to ground would enrgize the heating element and possibly cause a fire. The fire hazard is considered greater than the elctric shock hazard.
Short cords on kitchen appliances was to reduce the chances of small children pulling on the cord and having the coffee pot or fry pan of hot grease land on them. **The Code change that allows required receptacles on the face of the counters re-introduces this hazard. 210.52(C)(5) exception.
GFI protection of the kitchen receptacles was a combination people (women) washing their hair and/or babies in the sink, and those electric ranges that were three wire without a ground and a high resistance neutral (grounded) connection would make the plumbing in the sink a better ground path.
Alan

It goes beyond water, but water is the biggest factor. Wet skin is more conductive than dry skin, thus wet shocks are more severe, and more likely to lead to death. The kitchen isn't the only room with a ground, for instance; every room with a 3-prong grounded appliance has a ground in it and a chance for someone to hurt themselves.

Thus, we need GFCI everywhere there's water, regardless of whether the house has copper of plastic plumbing or whatever else is in the room.

Do you want to start another fight? What about a receptacle on the back of the peninsula where the kitchen sink is installed. The receptacle (which could be in the dining room or living room) which is not in the kitchen, nor is it on the counter top, but it is within 6 feet of the kitchen sink. Does it need to be GFI protected?

The question would be does it serve the countertop

Rewire,

Technically the receptacle couldn't serve the countertop, because most appliances only have a 2 foot cord. Yet, the receptacle is within 6' of the sink. So again, would it have to be GFI protected?

The sink really does not get addressed in the "kitchen". The GFCI rule 210.52(A)(6) says "where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top surfaces". 210.52(C)(6) with the exception says that is between 20" above and 12" below the counter top. Receptacles beyond that distance are not serving the counter top.
I suppose you could plug your hand mixer in that receptacle and drop it into the sink but the code is silent on that issue. If as a design concern you are worried about it as the homeowner or EC you could put in a GFCI receptacle there but you are treading on the edge of a 210.52(B)(2) violation if this is not the dining room, breakfast room, pantry etc and you extend the small appliance circuit there.

If it does not serve the countertop then I would say it does not need GFI protection.

I would agree with rewire that the receptacle in the dining room, Even though it is within 6' of the sink, would not need GFI protection.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I noticed on the countertop appliances I've bought the last few years that they have grounded cords. The Kenmore toaster, coffee maker, GE waffle maker, all have them. I am guessing it is because they have exposed metal casings. But yet, not all small appliances I've seen lately have grounds.

you had better go less than 6' anyway,,, you need a minimum of two twenty amp GFI protected ckts,, 4 recepts max on a ckt,, 2' from an opening be it a sink, range , refer, etc

Romex2121:
Where do you get.... "4 recepts max on a ckt"????

im assuming that this was a kitchen ckt,, i may have read it wrong tho,, if it is a kitch ckt than ckt cannot exced 4 recepts on a GFI protected 20amp ckt

Romex2121,

I appreciate your comments. Though I can't account for any local codes you may be working under and also kitchen circuits if installed per code could easily be overloaded if installed per code minimum standards, I do not know of any code requirement for a maximum of 4 receptacles on the kitchen counter top small appliance branch circuits. Keep up with the good practice.

Shane

Romex2121:
Where are you quoting the max of four (4) receptacles per 20 amp SA kitchen circuit?

Is is a local thing?

sorry,, i was quoting a NM code as the NEC,, per NM, we can only have (4) recepts per each (min. 2) 20amp kitch circut,, 2foot from an opening,be it end of counter tops,refer, range openings,sink edges,,etc,, and then 4foot spaceings,,all GFI protected ,,, sorry for the confusion,,,,,,,,,,,,