ECN Forum
Posted By: renosteinke 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 12:09 AM
We've all seen some fabulous kitchens. My question arises when the island or penninsula is also serving to separate the kitchen from another room. Let's look at this picture (stolen from Fine Homebuilding) as a good illustration of the idea:

[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]

Now, here's the issue: When the island or peninsula is used to separate rooms, do you treat is as if it were a wall, requiring 'convenience outlets' (that would still be needed to be on a small appliance branch circuit)?

To stress the point: I'm not talking about receptacles to serve the countertop - I'm talking about receptacles near floor level, on the 'seating' side of the bar, to serve the room?

Do you apply the 2 ft and 6 ft rules here?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 12:35 AM
Reno:
First I would say no receptacles at the sitting area. Looking at that fine pic, I see no location on the 'face' to mount a receptacle. A carefully selected location, perhaps underneath the 'tabletop, or underneath the 'drawer' area, could serve as a GP 6-12.

I would address a kitchen job like the pic on a case by case basis.

As to 'required receptacle'...here (NJ) a EC or H/O can apply for a variation to 'required' on a 'safety issue' basis. A variation application is $250.00 and is the decision of the Electrical Subcode Official (AHJ). It has been used to eliminate a island required receptacle on the basis of someone getting tangled/caught in the cord, and possibly being injured by a falling appliance. (Especially kids)

Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 03:10 AM
So you do not believe the seating area counts as "the space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-top counters or railings," which this section of the NEC specifically says must have those floor-level receptacles?

Yes, that's a direct quote from the NEC, regarding the general requirements for receptacle spacing. This is the rule we apply to all the rooms of the house - and has nothing to do with the receptacles required for counters.

Don't feel bad; I bet this has yet to be enforced laugh
Posted By: George Little Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 03:37 AM
As an inspector (IMHO) I see a lot of these high end homes in the multimillion dollar range and each one is a challenge. As for the picture posted here I would ask that we provide counter top receptacles on a 4' foot centers max. And putting my contractor hat on for one minute that's very easily accomplished with locating them facing down on the underside of the countertop. Another iption would be to provide "pop-up" receptacles @ $100. per. In 25 years of inspecting I only had one installation where a receptacle for the countertop (in this case an island) was waived and that was an all glass island counter.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 03:53 AM
Again, George ... the requirement I cite is for receptacles in addition to whatever serves the counter. They have nothing to do with the sounter space.

As I read that requirement, these receptacles would be no more than 12 ft apart, not more than 6 ft. from the ends, and are usually placed a foot or so above the floor - way too low, and on the wrong side, to serve the counter. Rather, they would serve the room on that side of the bar.
Posted By: George Little Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 04:53 AM
Reno- I'm agreeing with you. We could very easily install receptacles to serve the countertop and I would have no problem using these same receptacles to serve the "wall space" in front of the seating area on the snack bar/room divider.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 05:01 AM
Perhaps ... but their being on the wrong side, facing the kitchen, is an issue.

Mind you. I'm speaking in general terms, not just for the bar in this picture. Indeed, the differenc in height between the counter and the bar makes placing the counter receptacles a real cinch to instal.

I think of the last home I saw with this arrangement, and there was a receptacle on the face of the bar seating area. Then I think of a house I wired, and I faile to put one in. I also think of many places where the dividing counter did not have an receptacles serving the seating area.

Personally, I was surprised to see this called out so explicitly in the code.Is it a good requirement? A bad one? An ignored one? I don't know, hence this effort to get a discussion going smile
Posted By: gfretwell Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 07:17 AM
The face of the bar towards the area that was not kitchen would get a receptacle or two in it ... or you can put in a floor receptacle if that is not possible/acceptable.

I have the exact situation you are talking about in my house. We knocked out the wall between the kitchen and living room and installed a cabinet peninsula with a counter top on it. I serve the counter top with a receptacle at both ends, one on the wall, one below the counter from SA circuits and the 210.52(A) wall outlets on the living room side are fed from a general lighting circuit. My wife didn't like me cutting holes in her pecky cypress wainscoting for 2 duplex receptacles but "rulz is rulz". We use all of them. I found some wood covers that match up fairly well.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 01:35 PM
Reno:
Please re-read what I said above, as to GP recept spacings.

As I mentioned, a case by case situation, either on 'paper' or in the field.

Yes, IF it is called a wall/divider/partition, it will have 6/12 or >24" spacing. Solutions to provide code compliance are available, the issue most times is with the owner not wanting a device where is has to be by code.

BTW, the 'variation' is not a regular used item
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 03:36 PM
Well, I'm glad we're all in agreement, that the code does call for these convenience outlets.

I'm still amazed at the number of places that don't have them - including the home where I was raised (built 1963) and the one where I now stay (bulit 1996).

I think the 'real' reason this is overlooked is that the islands / peninsulas are constructed by the cabinet guys, who have zero interest in the NEC. They have less interest than the counter guys - as if that were possible!
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by HotLine1
Reno:
First I would say no receptacles at the sitting area. Looking at that fine pic, I see no location on the 'face' to mount a receptacle. A carefully selected location, perhaps underneath the 'tabletop, or underneath the 'drawer' area, could serve as a GP 6-12.
Difficulty integrating a receptacle into the kitchen designer's island does not mean it's not required. There are other options, including floor-mount receptacles. Or changing the cabinet design. Aesthetics or difficulty in incorporation into a given design are N/A.

NEC sets no limit on the height of wall receptacles, only the spacing (6/12') so receptacles mounted high on the bar may be allowed to perform double-duty... so long as the room outside the kitchen was an eating area or other area permitted to share the 20A GFCI kitchen circuits.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 07:14 PM
Reno:
Another comment on my end:
If there is no 'island', peninsula, etc., upon rough, or on the plans (sketch/layout), when it comes time for the final....the price is paid.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 07:39 PM
Steve, you have touched on the real issue. Small appliance circuits are not permitted to serve the living room so even if a counter top receptacle would be in the acceptable 210.52(A) range, they don't count ... legally.
It would have been very easy for me to cheat this in my renovation and I am sure I could have tricked a home inspector but it would have been wrong. Since I had the wall open and a general lighting circuit was available it never even crossed my mind. We still use the circuits somewhat interchangeably but if anyone ever asked, I can demonstrate that there are SA circuits serving the countertop and a GL circuit on the low wall.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 10:00 PM
Steve:
Keep in mind that receptacles above 5'6" don't qualify as the 'required', they are 'in addition to' or 'optional'.

Also, no mention was made to utilizing the SA circuits, or what area the counter/bar was in.

Making judgements from a photo can and will create much debate, as the photo leaves out a lot of required information.

And, yes design & asthetics are not a reason to 'eliminate' any NEC required receptacles or other items
Posted By: George Little Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 10:53 PM
That's why us inspectors make the big bucks. :)))
I would approve the receptacles if they were mounted beneath the countertop as suitable for double duty. As long as they were near the front of the edge and could be reached by the 24" cords of the appliances. And Greg would also (I think)
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/23/09 11:17 PM
Greg, you hit upon another bit of code trivia when you brought up the SABC.

Remember, all the receptacles serving any eating areas - pantry, breakfast nook, dining room, etc. - are required to be on a 20 amp SABC. IMO, the 'floor area' receptacles would have to be on an SABC in the area of the bar. I would accept the rest of the living room (as shown in the picture) not being on a SABC.

Indeed, the 'living room' can NOT be on an SABC.

It's an interesting distinction, as the 'living room' has to be AFCI protected, while the areas served by the SABC's does not. Indeed, receptacles in the toe-kick of that bar would neither have to be GFCI nor AFCI protected - a very rare situation in the current edition of the NEC.

Does anyone else think that designers stay up nights trying to give inspectors headaches? :D:D
Posted By: gfretwell Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/24/09 06:22 PM
I didn't find it that confusing in my situation. The receptacles on the living room side that could not "serve the countertop" per 210.52(C) were 210.52(A) and would be AFCI if I was on the 2008.
If I had a receptacle on the kitchen side >12" below they would be SABC but not required to be GFCI. In a practical sense they probably still would be. The only reason I could think of not to would be if it was the fridge.
My fridge is on the bathroom fan/light circuit because that is the way it was wired, way back in 1963 and I saw no reason to change it. I did pull in a separate 20 for the bath vanity top for the hair dryers, very soon after I moved here. (maybe one "trip" after I moved here) wink
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/25/09 01:11 AM
If an island unit can be moved, that is it's not fixed to the floor, is it a table...?

We are constructing just such a unit for our kitchen- a 19C French "doughbox", as used to make bread. The oak carcase is original, but the 'counter-top' or 'lid' for kneading is long gone. We thought of putting new 2.5" thick Alder 'lids' on as I have some huge 20 year old air dried boards, as a pair of sliding countertops on ball-bearing runners, to use the space in the box. It won't be nailed down, as the floor is ceramic tiled and it weights a ton anyway.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/25/09 02:21 AM
IMO, Alan, if it can be moved - even if that takes three men, a boy, and a dog - it's not part of the house, just furniture.
Posted By: leland Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/25/09 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by George Little
That's why us inspectors make the big bucks. :)))
I would approve the receptacles if they were mounted beneath the countertop as suitable for double duty. As long as they were near the front of the edge and could be reached by the 24" cords of the appliances. And Greg would also (I think)



How about 210.52(C)(5) exception?
"...Shall not be located where the counter top extends more than 150 mm (6")beyond its support base."
Posted By: George Little Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/25/09 07:01 PM
Good point Leland, I guess I'd still allow it as long as the receptacle was less than 12" from the counter top surface. Some of these custom installs are judgment calls and as long as they can give me code or equivalency I'm happy.
Posted By: SteveFehr Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/27/09 06:18 PM
If I have a table, it's just a table. If I have a pine hutch, it's just a hutch. But if I bolt the hutch to the wall to prevent it from tipping over, is it suddenly cabinetry and counter? If I bolt the table to the floor because the base is a bit undersized and unstable, have I now just created an island?
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/27/09 06:42 PM
Steve, I would say that making the furniture permanent does mean the rules now apply.

The hutch example is a bit of a non-issue, as you need more than 12" of depth to that open area for the counter rules to apply. I've seen many hutches that lack that depth.

Indeed, here's an example of a kitchen counter that -over a 14 ft. run - required only one receptacle:

[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/28/09 06:08 PM
Just to hammer the point a wee bit more laugh :

Here's a pic of another peninsula, where you can see the receptacle on the adjoining wall. As I read the code, you would need another receptacle in the 'toe kick' area of the bar, approximately where I placed the white "X":

[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: 210.52(A)(1) and Kitchens - 10/29/09 12:18 AM
Yes, Reno; unless the "wall" falls into the 6' dimension.

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