ECN Forum
Posted By: 2000xp8 Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/07/09 10:03 PM
Learned a few things the hard way on this hot tub.

First off, since the hot tub was far away from the main panel, and there was a basement where more work would take place, so i ran a 90 amp sub panel, in SER.
Then found out, that to do that you have to pull a permit for the sub, then another after the sub is inspected pull another permit for the hot tub, or else the wire has to be in conduit. How or why that makes any sense, i dunno.

Now, i fail the same job, for not having seperate neutrals and grounds in the disconnect.
I've done a fair amount of hot tubs, i'm by no means a pool guy, but i do a few a year. I always buy the disconnects at the supply house meant for a hot tub (cutler ch) and hook them all up the same way (at least i think i do).
There is only one ground/neutral bar in this disconnect, i just checked. And never do i ever remember adding one.

Did i perhaps get a disconnect missing a second bar? Did something change in the code?
Maybe i've been doing it wrong all this time and getting away with it?

thanks,
Joe
Posted By: Tom Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/07/09 11:14 PM
The NEC has been migrating away from using the grounded conductor (usually a neutral) as an equipment ground for quite some time. The general rule is once you pass the service disconnect, equipment grounds and grounded conductors are to be separated an the grounded conductor should not come into contact with a grounded enclosure.

The CH catalog for their spa disconnect shows two factory installed bus bars.
Posted By: 2000xp8 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/07/09 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Tom
The NEC has been migrating away from using the grounded conductor (usually a neutral) as an equipment ground for quite some time. The general rule is once you pass the service disconnect, equipment grounds and grounded conductors are to be separated an the grounded conductor should not come into contact with a grounded enclosure.

The CH catalog for their spa disconnect shows two factory installed bus bars.


Good to know.
Maybe the disconnect i got this time was missing neutral bar, and since i don't do that many of them i just over looked it.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 12:27 AM
Using the neutral for the ground has never really been legal with two very specific exceptions, ranges and dryers. That went away over a decade ago.
Pools and spas are even more specific about this and if you are not abusing the exception about "existing" feeders you are required to use an insulated EGC in conduit in addition to the neutral.
Personally I would not accept a feeder installed in preparation for a spa as "existing" no matter when it was inspected.

Quote
680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.
Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).
(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
Posted By: 2000xp8 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
Using the neutral for the ground has never really been legal with two very specific exceptions, ranges and dryers. That went away over a decade ago.
Pools and spas are even more specific about this and if you are not abusing the exception about "existing" feeders you are required to use an insulated EGC in conduit in addition to the neutral.
Personally I would not accept a feeder installed in preparation for a spa as "existing" no matter when it was inspected.

[/quote]

I wasn't using any neutral for a ground. The SER has 2 hots a neutral and an uninsulated ground.
And the hot tub was completely piped with all THHN.
The missing neutral bar was an oversight on my part obviously.

As far you not accepting the subpanel wiring based on it's future use.
How would you know it was for a Hot tub? if the Sub Panel permit was pulled and closed prior to the application for a hot tub permit.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 02:33 AM
Greg:
The sub-panel first install was something Harold kicked around awhile ago. I don't remember the thread.

I have not had anyone try to use the 'existing' panel story.

Now to 2000XP8.....

First, I do not have a crystal ball, nor an account with a local physic, so I have no clue about any 'future use' for a sub-panel install, nor most other installs.

Applying for a permit for a sub-panel (resi) may/may not get the EC a phone call for 'why?'. Dependent on the answer I get if a call is made, additional info could be requested.
You get the permit, you get an inspection, you get a sticker (hopefully Approved), and you receive a CA via US mail within 30 days. And yes, I put the sticker on the sub.

Second, On a hot tub install, basically....IF the sub was 'existing'...technically I have to accept it as a source for the HT feeder. (Based on NJ UCC 5:23-6 (Rehab))
As I said above, I have not had any instances of this (yet)

Third, N-G on 1 buss or lug in a sub, buys a red sticker.

Lastly, I make this comment...trying to "get over" on an experienced AHJ with the two step job is not a good thing. I (for one) spent many years with tools, and I think I have a clue when someone is being 'slick'

If any of the other Mods think my comments are out of line, please feel free to delete.

Posted By: 2000xp8 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by HotLine1
Greg:
The sub-panel first install was something Harold kicked around awhile ago. I don't remember the thread.

I have not had anyone try to use the 'existing' panel story.

Now to 2000XP8.....

First, I do not have a crystal ball, nor an account with a local physic, so I have no clue about any 'future use' for a sub-panel install, nor most other installs.

Applying for a permit for a sub-panel (resi) may/may not get the EC a phone call for 'why?'. Dependent on the answer I get if a call is made, additional info could be requested.
You get the permit, you get an inspection, you get a sticker (hopefully Approved), and you receive a CA via US mail within 30 days. And yes, I put the sticker on the sub.

Second, On a hot tub install, basically....IF the sub was 'existing'...technically I have to accept it as a source for the HT feeder. (Based on NJ UCC 5:23-6 (Rehab))
As I said above, I have not had any instances of this (yet)

Third, N-G on 1 buss or lug in a sub, buys a red sticker.

Lastly, I make this comment...trying to "get over" on an experienced AHJ with the two step job is not a good thing. I (for one) spent many years with tools, and I think I have a clue when someone is being 'slick'

If any of the other Mods think my comments are out of line, please feel free to delete.



John,
You seem to be taking my post very personal.
Which is odd, because i don't see any place in this thread that i personally directed a comment to you.

As far as a 2 step job, it was my own inspector who suggested if i pulled the permit previously for the sub, there would of been no issue.

I've also yet to see anyone post how using ser as opposed to pipe with it's own insulated ground to the subpanel that will feed a hot tub, poses any safety threat.
How about giving some reasoning behind the need for the insulated ground, and maybe myself and others that read this would be a bit more opposed to using the slick 2 step method.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 04:07 AM
The requirement od the insulated ground, going all the way back to the service, has to be one of the most commonly violated parts of hot-tub installs.

I don't defend it, or understand it .... but the requirement does exist.

Fortunatley is seems to be rarely enforced.
2000xp8-
I enforce the insulated grounding conductor per the code and with good reason. There is a need for a good clean grounding path for any fault current or any other irregularities associated with a pool or spa. by using an uninsulated grounded conductor there is always a chance for alternate path of current flow on any grounded surface. That's the way it was explained to me about 25 years ago when I started inspecting and you may choose to not agree with that line of thinking but that's the way the code panel sees it and over the years there has been proposals to change it (one from me) but there was no substantiation to justify changing it to allow an uninsulated grounding conductor. When in a court of law- all they see is the literal words and that's what the words are "Insulated Conductor for grounding"
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 05:30 AM
OK My fault, I missed the SER and read SE. I am with the other guys I am not sure why they want the neutral insulated but rulz is rulz. That has been in the code for at least 37 years, it was not new in the 75 (the oldest book I have). It might be interesting to look at the ROPs, see if anyone wanted to change it and what the CMP had to say about it.

The rebonded neutral is still a violation, even if this was not serving a spa or pool.
Whether the AHJ is happy with the "existing" loophole or not is up to him. If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation. I would take the time to be sure it was completely compliant. I would not want to compound the insulated neutral thing by ignoring something else.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 05:41 AM
George, the EGC in a pool is far from an isolated ground so I don't see the alternate path thing as being an issue. An in ground concrete pool is actually the biggest Ufer grounding electrode in any home. Virtually all of the equipment is bonded to the pool shell and is connected to the service via an EGC. Add a screen cage, a few window frames, plus the deck and you have a huge interconnected matrix.
Posted By: 2000xp8 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by George Little
2000xp8-
I enforce the insulated grounding conductor per the code and with good reason. There is a need for a good clean grounding path for any fault current or any other irregularities associated with a pool or spa. by using an uninsulated grounded conductor there is always a chance for alternate path of current flow on any grounded surface.


Your point makes some sense, but in reality the tub is grounded to the sub panel, which also in most situations will have other grounds in it going to other circuits.
So basically it have many other alternate directions for the ground to go.

I think some of you guys that are inspectors take some things too personal, it's not. It's business. And by coming down harder on someone that has used the system to the best of their ability, you make it personal. I'd also go as far as to call it abuse of power.
My local inspectors are very good, they seem to be fair, and treat all jobs by all contractors equivalently.
It's almost like you guys think it's a game and we are your opponent.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 06:05 AM
I do not think we should have an adversary relationship with the contractors. We are partners in the effort to make a safe installation. Most of the time I do try to have a good explanation of why the code says what it does but I admit I am at a loss on this "insulated neutral" thing. I always thought it was a corrosion issue. I do understand why they keep a "belt and suspenders" approach to swimming pools. Water, electricity and semi naked people, lots of things can go wrong.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 08:40 PM
2000xp8:

"Third, N-G on 1 buss or lug in a sub, buys a red sticker.

Lastly, I make this comment...trying to "get over" on an experienced AHJ with the two step job is not a good thing. I (for one) spent many years with tools, and I think I have a clue when someone is being 'slick'"

The sub install first I have no issue with, as I said, I can't forsee the future. The day I'm there is all I can see.

As to the 'bare neutral' issue, I have not addressed that.

Your comments regarding abuse of power, and eluding to preferential treatment, that were NOT addressed to me, seem to be kind of hostile.

Please keep reading.....

I will not use this forum for a flaming war, nor to get personal. However, PM and direct e-mail conversations/debates are more than welcomed by myself.



Posted By: 2000xp8 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/08/09 10:21 PM
This is the comment on why i made the abuse of power statement.

"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."

As far as i'm concerned all inspections need to be handled 100% the same way, regardless of contractor or personal issues with someone.
To be less flexible with someone based on the fact that a contractor used the system to their advantage is just wrong.


Posted By: renosteinke Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/09/09 01:08 AM
ECN has a long record of honest discussion. We simply do not tolerate 'flaming' or bad manners here. Disagreement, yes .... personal attacks, no.

An inspectors' attitude is a good topic for a discussion of its' own. I've seen plenty of differences in the way an inspector treats contractors, and that attitude often has some foundation in that contractor's past jobs. Let me cite two examples:

I once had new inspector go so far as to measure my grounding pigtails in every box; he was similarly thorough as to every other detail he could think of. I don't know what inspired his attention to detail .... but I did notice his next inspection was cursory. I'm sure that his seeing the hearty reception I received at an inspectors' lunch had no influence on him at all laugh

On another job has a problematic customer, and a general with an ego. Both parties considered prints and plans as mere suggestions. On that job, relays of inspectors were constantly examining every detail .... but, for some reason, they left the electrical pretty much alone. (There was a brief fuss over my temporary power, but that was readily resolved).

Let's face it: it would be improper to accept all statements, from all parties, under all circumstances the same way. An inspector has to make a snap judgement as to whether the contractor is competent and honest. There's virtue is the inspector devoting his resources where they are most needed.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/09/09 01:23 AM
2000xp8:

"This is the comment on why i made the abuse of power statement.

"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."

As far as i'm concerned all inspections need to be handled 100% the same way, regardless of contractor or personal issues with someone.
To be less flexible with someone based on the fact that a contractor used the system to their advantage is just wrong."

I agree with your post/comments excluding the quoted statement. Personal issues have to be left in the car or home by all inspectors, and all EC's. The Codes have to be enforced equally, AHJ to AHJ, job to job, contractor to contractor, town to town, etc. This enforcement procedure is within the intent of NJ UCC (5:23 et al)

As I say to many EC's at CEU's or on jobsites, I don't write it, I only enforce it. Someday the perfect world scenario of "Black & White" with gray eliminated will arrive.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/09/09 02:39 AM
Quote

"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."


Since that was my comment I will address it.

How can we respect each other if you start out trying to game the system? Who was "abusing" whom here?
If you are shading the truth before we start, I have to be curious where else you are cutting corners. I certainly will not trust what you tell me about things you say you did without looking at it.

Fair enough?
Posted By: sabrown Re: Hot tub disconnect ground/netral bar - 07/09/09 03:54 PM
Several things can affect any inspection. Upon coming from an inspection where I found that the equipment grounding conductor extended about 8" down a conduit so that it looked like the equipment ground was installed as called for, I went through with a very fine toothed comb. I then went to a job where at first glance everything looked good and so I did not look at it as close, but yes there still were items written up.

Next time I look at the first contractors work, I will be very pickey and concerned. I will be thorough until I know what to expect of someone and adjust acccordingly, yet all of us can use a second set of eyes.
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