Hi all, i was wondering if anyone would be interested in the dubious defintion of sleeve in the nec.

note that we do define raceway in art 100, but not sleeve

our nec starts out defining raceway as 'enclosed'
Webster's definition(s)

2 : a channel for loosely holding electrical wires in buildings

i'm told that anything that isn't could be viewed as a sleeve wiki-definition
In construction, a sleeve is used both by the electrical and mechanical trades to create a penetration.

comments....??

~S~

Sparky:
The wiki-definition says it all.

Thanks for the links

Inspectors in my department tell me a sleeve is something to protect a wire when going through a wall or floor. A raceway is something that goes from j-box to j-box, typically. They also tell me that sleeves don't have to be grounded but raceways do (if they're metal).

Not being an inspector myself, this is just what I have been told (question came up when I was reviewing a building addition a couple of years ago). Please correct me if I am mistaken. I am but a humble urban planner who shares a floor with the electrical inspectors.

They call that 4" PVC they run under a driveway a sleeve here. Everyone who needs to go to the other side lives in it.

Bigplanz;


well 300.4 mentions 'sleeve' multiple times in regards to physical damage, ans 250.86 is where 'short sections' is mentioned

niether are in definitions, or the index of the nec.

apparently this is where pipe fill and detrating take a hiatis, at least to some (and this particular some teaches code updates btw)

For instance, let's take a simple cellar romex job that incorporates 1/2" deep 4 square devicing boxes with 1/2" emt 'sleeves'

the romex is not stripped, because it is not captive at the upper end of the 1/2" emt. Note the type/style of connector here would make all the dif....

another example might be an underground service riser on a poco pole. These being considered an 'open' entity that allows heat out.
I've noted the pocos are great on V-drop, yet somewhat fall short of the nec pipe fill doctrine

~S~

methinks they get a night out 3-17.....

The reason I brought it up is, who can live in a sleeve and does it have to be "conduit"?
Typical situation, the GC put a 4" PVC plumbing or DWV pipe under the driveway. The irrigation guy shot a 1" black poly pipe in there, The landscape guy put his Malibu zip lead in there, the TelCo and CableCo went through and the electrician needs to get a 12/2 UF across the driveway. Can he go through it?
Joe T an I used to always disagree about this.

would the jist of the debate be different systems in the same space Greg....?

~S~

Greg:

One comment/opinion I heard regarding this....

The 'sleeve' has to be material that is 'electrical'

ie: PVC conduit, EMT, etc.; as opposed to plumbing, or other materials.

Thoughts??? Anyone care to comment??

I think we need to focuson the WHAT we're trying toaccomplish, and the WHY, and not get bogged down in the details.

Let's first ask: what is a 'sleeve" supposed to do? As best I can tell, it's there primarily to protect the wires from damage, and perhaps secondarily to ease the installation of those wires.

If that's the case, then the sleeve has, as it's first priority, to be able to withstand whatever it is we want to protect against. An errent staple is one thing; a backing up semi-trailer is another. Or, the sleeve may be there to keep the wires from getting in harms way; an example might be the tubes used to keep wires around your car's engine from getting caught in belts, etc.

I would like to observe here that UL does NOT have a listing classification for 'sleeving.' Let's not make the leap and assume that 'conduit' is always a good material for a sleeve.

However the sleeveis made, two other criteria need to be met.First, the wires need to be protected from abrasion where they enter the sleeve. Second, they need to be secured.

ok Renosteinke,
i guess i'd say a 'sleeve' in our trade is used to protect a conductor, or be something that is arranged beforehand (like your driveway point) to accomodate one

now anytime a definitional roadblock occurs in the nec, we usually turn to Noah Webster and/or associates for help.

We can note through use of this (yet again) living document of revolving vernacular that indeed the definitions of sleeve and raceway are different

therefore, a raceway cannot be a sleeve, and a sleeve cannot be a raceway.

we can aleady conclude that the nec has already gone to this extent

To further the pursuit of definitional correctness (because the entire debate hinges on it) would be to ask what sort of material(s) constitue a 'sleeve'

as there exists no whitebook or other standard for sleeve, i'm of the opion it's up to the ahj, correct?

~S~

I went down in my basement and found a couple of what I guess are sleeves. This short piece of EMT goes from one side of a beam in my house to the other, over the beam between the floor above and the beam (a gap of about two inches). I suppose it has a sleeve due to the floor nails protruding out like teeth from the underside of the floor.

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218631_ZxxWF-M.jpg

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218732_zBG9f-M.jpg

Another spot, under the bathroom closet, had a line going up from the basement to the first floor. I suppose this is a sleeve as well. I know some sort of protection is required when going through a floor, so I guess this is it.

http://stevelutzphoto.smugmug.com/photos/490218700_FjWJn-M.jpg

It used to be a fairly universal rule in Florida that all wire coming down a wall to a switch or outlet was in an EMT sleeve unless it was in a covered wall with enough depth to get 1.25" BACK. If this was 1x furring over block with drywall it was in pipe. Same in the unfinished spaces. That went away when we adopted the NEC, unaltered and now they use a stacker to get it 1.25" from the furring strip sideways but it is still right behind the drywall with a CMU "anvil" behind it so the nail has to puncture the cable.
A giant step backward in my opinion.

I suppose when we actually kill a few people they will reconsider like they did on bonding steel studs.

well Greg, i just roughed a job where that newer closed cell insulation was 'flashed' 3" in 2x6 construction. It was requested that i, as the electrician, violate this membrane as minimally as possible, so all the devicing is done via 1.5" depth 4 squares , w/ gangboxes for switching via 1/2" emt sleeves.

i'm rather big on conductor protection myself btw

nice shots Bigplanz. I guess this is what would be considered a fairly universal 'sleeve' among us.

a few characteristics come to mind here,

first the conductor isn't stripped, the eliptical cross section normally being considered in a raceway assumably due to captive heat not being a problem

secondly, the usual reference is made to 'short sections' , which has been considered to be self defining as the maximun length normally available for our trade, re; 10 feet

that said, i did have the thought that i purchase 3/4" greenfield (flexible mettalic) in 100' rolls

so this then introduces the possibility of a 40', or say 60' 'sleeve'

also noted is that 'sleeve' need only be open at one end.

Now i know i'm stretching the undefined here, but it is possible to construct two pieces fixed electrical entities qualifying as 'sleeve' merely via being broken in the middle

~S~

I would like to think that anything under a 10' length of pipe would be considered a sleeve because it is not a full length of pipe.

I would consider a sleeve being anything that is not terminated on each end in a box or cabinet and carries a stand alone wiring method.

That brings up 2 other undefined words describing a similar enclosure "<electrical>Duct" and "Chase". That sleeve under a driveway is clearly a duct, at least for derating purposes.

Did you guys see the ad for 20' lengths of EMT? Guess that shoots the 10' theory. LOL

The 'coil length' Sparky referenced (100') might work. So, a 90' chunk of greenfield with suitable bushings on the ends may be construed as a sleeve, but....support the greenfield; or 'snake it in'?

It's another of the gray areas that are AHJ accepted or rejected.

BTW: Do you guys agree on the 'electrical materials' for sleeves, or is plumb DWV or PVC sprinkler scraps OK?

I would not require "electrical" materials. Indeed, I can think of several situations where "electrical" materials might be inappropriate.

Guys, we can't expect codes to spell out every detail, make every decision for us. Folks have to be able to use their 'common sense,' then be able to explain their positions in a manner that any 12 strangers are likely to understand, and agree with.

The use of PVC fire sprinkler (orange) scraps for sleeves thru rated sheetrock walls in multi-family resi was a 'red tag' topic that was discussed at a NJEIA meeting recently.

Debate was that the orange pvc was not approved electrical materials.

BTW: Not my argument. Perhaps 'common sense' can be adopted into the next code cycle; sure looks like a lot of guys in my area have totally lost it

well i often wonder who the nec is being written to Reno, while some parts are intrical engineering level calculation, others seem to be geared to legaleese

for instance, i'm sure you recall the redefining of fixture to luminaire... one of our best examples.....

i always imagine some whimsical scene where some sparky is explaining the toliet on the cieling to a scrutinizing inspector....

but i digress, here, what might be the most prevealant 'sleeve seen is the well guys use of the same black H2O pipe they use to bring the water lines in

it seems like everyone simply acknowlegdes what they repetitively see as being acceptable ....~S~

My thoughts was, if the piece of conduit is less than 10' it is a sleeve for protection of a wire. If you need more than 10' to protect the wire, then run a conduit and be done with the issue. How is that for an answer?

i would say that would be considered the norm Harold
~S~

Someone posted "Does it have to be electrical material to be a sleeve." Or something like that. Well IMHO if you just use it for a sleeve, then NO! It doesn't have to be UL listed or labeled for electrical work. After all you can use a piece of wood to support, or protect a piece of wire and that is not UL labeled for electrical work. NOW if you were installing THHN wires in a water pipe, should that pass inspection? I don't think so. However a great big piece of 4" Plumbers pipe under a driveway and the EC slips a piece of UF through it, what's that harm? We need to use a little common sense when we inspect these jobs. ( I would hope!)

John,

Where have you seen 20'lengths of EMT? Are they UL listed and labeled? If they are then I wouldn't care if they were used for Physical protection.

HE

Harold:
Yes, there are 20' lengths of EMT available. It's marketed as a 'cost saver'.

Yes, it is UL listed/labeled. It's available in red for FA work also.

Harold,

Here's a link.

http://www.wheatland.com/cdrom/emt.html

They've even got a cost savings calculator.

If only more people thought like that. It seems that the creation of an environment where everything is so complicated that there is no common sense is what is being sought after these days.

All in the name of profit, err I mean safety of course.

"If only more people thought like that. It seems that the creation of an environment where everything is so complicated that there is no common sense is what is being sought after these days.

Perhaps it may be time to attempt to get "common sense" into the NEC!

Good luck!

There's no money/control for those with the lobbying power in that plan.