680.26 (C) Pool water......

States water must be bonded.. Now the pump I don't feel is in "Direct contact" with the water, Gaskets,seals,impeller etc.

So, now we do the 9 sq inch thing.

Does the light trim count? Wet niche of course would.
My thought woud be to install a peice of stainless pipe in 1 of the lines. This seems to be an easy solution.

The season (here) is approaching, so thoughts would be great.

Lee

A 2" metallic pipe nipple on the pump with a suitable clamp would meet the requirement, even with 1.5" pipe. (9.42 sq/in)

Most of the wet niches I see around here are PVC but there usually is a metal ring on the light. You would also be able to include a metal ladder or even the ladder cups if they are metal and under water.

Greg:
Today's discussion regarding the ladder....
Pools here are closed for the winter, and the ladders are removed for the cover.
Based on that, the water bond is not there with the ladder out.
Comments??

YA, What Hotline1 said.

We don't all live in the sunshine state!! Haven't seen sun in 5 looong days!! Damn cold too!!

(all in jest- can't (don't know how) to find the icons)

Now the next step is to find (or make) an approved nipple with a lug on it.

If steel rebar is considered a grounding electrode when of sufficient length in contact with concrete, wouldn't the pool water also be considered grounded by contact? Or does the liner completely negate that?

Steve, the issue they are talking about is a plastic pool, double insulated pump and all plastic nicheless light. If you have no other way to bond the water the 2008 requires some other piece of metal 9 sq/in to accomplish it.
John
If the ladder is out, the cups are still going to be there.

Greg, these cups are not typicaly in contact with the water are they? My pool has the drop in ladders, cups only in the deck, (In ground liner). No hand rail at the steps,though I suppose if there were one that would cover it.

I think we will see a metalic coupleing,as discussed, arive shortly.This would be a nice convieniant and standard solution.

I am not really sure how many "plastic only" pools there are in the US. Concrete "in ground" is the norm here and the rebar makes this an excellent ground plane. The sun tears up plastic and I don't think I have ever seen the vinyl liner pools here except a few above ground. Usually they either go for a concrete pool or they abandon the pool idea altogether

Greg,

Up here I have seen in the last 9 years at least 7 plastic pools. I am not a big fan of these pools, but I have to inspect them. BTW, these pools are the only ones that I have seen problems with "Stray Voltage". The concrete or steel w/plastic liners never had any stray voltage ( to my knowledge) problems around here.

John, If the the ladder is out for the winter, is the pool bonding that critical? LOL, I mean is anyone going to swim up here in Jan? Today was a balmy 25-35 deg and sunny, a nice day for a walk, but not a swim.

Harold:
My thoughts went down that road...
Metal ladder connected mechanically to bonded cups. OK as a "water bond".
I thought that would be an acceptable solution.....
Comment was...'no good because ladder is removed when pool is covered' (winterized)
My reply was...'who would/could be affected in any way by a covered/winterized pool?'
Comment was to the effect that the install would not be code compliant.

Debate will continue at a future date.

I remove my ladders untill we have the guests over.
My biggest issue is the..beverages and egos!:)

Harold "Stray voltage" is just another name for bad bonding/grounding and an all plastic pool is just asking for it. That is why the 2005-2008 is trying to find other things to bond like the deck and now the water.
Personally I would like the metal bonded pipe nipple on the pool end of the plumbing but the pump end is sufficient to meet code. You usually have a #8 brought to the pump location since they probably haven't bought the pump at pool electric rough but I am still not sure what all gets bonded if you had a plastic, above ground pool with a wood deck, PVC ladder and a double insulated pump.

Greg,

I have seen "stray voltage" problems with pools and the problems have all been with plastic pools. Not metal or concrete pools. The last pool problem with "stray" voltage seemed to come from the neighbors house. The EC was hooking up a pool light and got a shock It was around 30-50 volts (I believe). He knew there was no voltage because he was the only EC on the job. So the EC started to drive 8' ground rods every 10-15' around the pool and thermo weld the ground wires. Once he was on the neighbors side the voltage dropped to 2-5 volts. He didn't go next door to see what was causing the problem though because there were 3-4 houses on that side of the yard.

Where was the 30v delta, between what and what?

I still think you can't have too much bonding and the more you get bonded together the safer you are.
The big issue I see with a plastic pool is you have no electrical ground reference (like the huge Ufer you get with a concrete pool) so the best ground electrode is wet feet

Greg,

The EC felt the voltage and told me about it. I didn't see or test anything about stray voltage around this pool. I am just going on what the EC told me. In the 30 years of being in this industry, I still haven't seen any problem with stray voltage around pools that are rebar or metal sides. The last 3-4 times I heard about stray voltage was because the pool was plastic or fiberglass. In the last 4 years I have inspected around 10 plastic pools and about 4 of them had stray voltage problems. I am not sure about 2 or 3 of them because some of them have never called for final inspection. I am not sure if the job is done or not.

Greg in case you missed it a short drive from St. Petersburg into Clearwater along US-19 will take you past three different retail establishments selling "plastic" inground pools. They range from true plastic to fiberglass shells...but I suppose the point here is that they have no concrete shell or grounding reference.

Although they might not have existed here in the past they certainly do now, and they need to be grounded. We have to attempt to protect these people... http://failblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/not-long-now/ from themselves somehow.

We currently have two pool companies installing "pre-manufactured, in-ground, plastic" pools. I like them. They look very nice when they are completed.

There used to be a guy up at the end of my street selling those glass pools. (He does concrete now). The sun was tough on the finish and he had a lot of warranty work.
I suspect the "3 foot" deck rule is really aimed at these types of pools, simply to give the user a safe zone around the water.
Again, the key to safety is bonding. The more you can include in your equipotential plane, the safer you are.