Based on the '05 NEC the wording in 250.50 states that "if present" all of the listed electrodes will be included in the GES. In some areas the re-bar os the foundation and or basement walls consist of numerous pieces of re-bar that are not tied together. If the bars are not 20 feet and => 1/2 in in diametr then they don't qualify as an electrode and would not be included in the GES. It's only the larger projects where engineering spec out the re-bar and the tying together that we are fased with using the re-bar as an electrode. Since the State of Michigan is just now adopting the '05 NEC I wonder what the rest of the areas are doing? Is there any wording in the building codes that would have the builders tying the re-bar together to form an electrode?

I'm a bit confused; I don't think I have ever seen rebar or even mesh that was not tied together. A simple piece of tie wire holding the pieces in alignment counts ... there's no need for anything fancier.

I have seen isolated bits used when a repair or change was made to an existing pour .... and I've never seen those connected to the existing bar.

I don't think you HAVE to tie the rebar to the GEC, unless that rebar is accessible. For a Ufer, a length of copper wire will suffice - and it need not be in contact with th rebar. The rebar spec only applies, as I understand it, if you wish the rebare alone to be the "Ufer," without any copper wire.

Maybe I'm just confused ...

In my part of the world as of jan. 2007 all new construction must have a piece of the rebar brought above grade, it must be tied to the bar in the footing/slab,and must be bonded to the GEC or the electrode itself with no smaller than a 6 awg solid copper wire by approved clamp or CAD weld. I have to do one tomorrow for a garage addition on the opposite end of house from service, 85 feet away. Homeowner will not be happy!!

Reno- The '02 NEC said "if available" and the feeling was that if it was not exposed it was not available. The '05 NEC says "if present" so this makes it mandatory to include it as an electrode and include it with any other electrodes that are present as the Ground Electrode system. My question had to do with the fact that if they weren't loug enough did we need to tie them together?

250.50 and 252.52(C)

George:
Here in NJ:
Ufer ground is installed on the majority of new construction, resi & comm. 20' of rebar; 1 piece or tied, with #4 cu connected to it by an approved clamp or exothermic welding (Cadweld) It is inspected by the building inspector when footing is inspected. (Per NJ UCC)

Now...who installs the #4 & clamp...probably the mason.

If & when it's on the opposite side of building from service location..the EC extends it to the main disco or main panel; again with Cadweld or a crimp barrel.

I get to 'see' it on service inspection.

As to the actual rebar emerging from the concrete....thats a "NO-NO" opinion from the State DCA. Opinion is basically that the rebar will rust as it is exposed; as opposed to being encased in concrete.

Ufer ground and water pipe (when it's copper)and the grounding is done.

BTW, more and more resi is going with plastic piping throughout.

Stay safe

So Wich one is supplemental? Ground rods or rebar?

My situation. My plan.

PSNH (utility) Requires the GEC to go to the meter can.

So I'm gonna' put 2 rods in and bond at the meter.
Then the rebar is going to go to the panel (inside right above the panel now)
All Plastic water. (PEX and well)

I see no problems, Do any of you?

The Ufer has been part of the footer inspection in Florida for years.
This is an old picture (back when they were building houses) of the general practice.

http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg

I was under the impression that if a Ufer ground was used there was no need for any other grounds.

Can anyone confirm this?

You are more or less correct, Jim. You certainly do not need a ground rod, plate, etc.

You still need to bond the plumbing, though. The NEC, notorious for poor grammar, continues to refer to the water bond as a grounding electrode. It's pure semantics .... with a Ufer we're not relying on the plumbing as a GEC, but are instead concerned with clearing a fault to the plumbing.

George,
We had this problem until we explained to the building inspectors that they were approving foundations that were not being built to the Building Code.
All the rebar is to be installed on blocks or chairs and tied together before the pour.
Dumping rebar into the foundation during the pour or having it stick out of the concrete into the earth is not the correct way to install the rebar.
On residential we have convinced most of the contractors to use 3/8 rod when they feel they must have rebar.
Those that use 1/2 must install it correctly and either bring it up inside in a dry space or have the copper connected before the pour.
This is definately a topic that needs to be covered at all Chapter and Section meetings of the Inspectors.
Even after I thought I knew it all I found out I didn't know it a lot.
On commercial jobs it is OK to go from the rebar to the building steel and building steel to the service. It does not have to go all the way to the service from the rebar.
The connection to the steel must be accessable.
The Code does not require a ground rod if the Concrete encased electrode is used However, the utility Co. usually will require Grd rods because the cannot see or confirm the Ufer ground.
If it was easy anyone could do it, and you couldn't charge $75 a hour.

In my town a 20' stick of #4 rebar with about an 18" bend, tied to the bottom bar and protruding up through the footing is what gets done and passed about 90% of the time.

The point of connection between the EGC and the rebar must remain accessible at all times. (usually a 5/8" acrorn clamp, a mud ring and a blank CP)

I did do a job a couple of hundred miles north of here where they had other ideas about that.

My conversations with a local EC's people (they also ran the only parts house in that rural community)got me only to the statement:
"A uffer is 20 ft of copper ran in the footing."
Period.
End of conversation.

I still think they were misinterpreting 250.52(A)(3) just a bit.

Rereading the original post I see I missed the point.
It seems George is concerned about being legally bound to bond any and every stub of structural steel within the bounds of his installed system.
Could you imagine explaining to the average homeowner why you need to hack into their 50 year old foundation to bond the rebar (well, there was supposed to be some rebar in here!!)
while doing an otherwise routine service change. As if explaining the cost of arc fault breakers and why you needed so many wasn't bad enough.

I'm waiting for an inspector to tell me that I need a #4 bond between all of the copper stubs attached to an otherwise plastic plumbing system because they are "likely to become energized".

The concrete folks that did our basement were aware of the requirement and they simply left a stub sticking out of the floor next to the wall where the breaker panel was going to be located. I don't see how it will rust out being inside and dry, and not in contact with the earth. An inside stub seems to be the best situation re corrosion.

In addition, we have three ground rods plus the well casing which goes down 60' (the well is 320' deep).

Two items of my extended learning about the Concrete encased electrode.
If the rebar is used only in the walls of the foundation and not the footer it is NOT suitable as the Ufer ground.
Caution must be taken where the rebar comes out of the top of a wall that has a treated lumber sill plate. The newer treated lumber is extremely corrosive to metal. Contractors are having to use either stainless steel or an extra thick coating of galvanize on fasteners with the newer lumber, when building decks etc.
This is all because the water lines are becoming non-metalic. Even wells are PVC with metal only at the top.
Next big head ache is the CSST gas lines.

In my local jurisdiction if we would like to obtain a final inspection and CO, electrical contractors have a choice for how to install the Ufer Ground; we can either install it and have it inspected before the concrete is poured, or do so after the concrete is poured, and our AJH is so nice he let’s us choose which way we want to do it.

Just inspected one yesterday, that wasn't done correctly. The electrician took a # 8 to a ground rod buried where the service conduits came up from the transformer into the building. That was OK but he also used # 8 to the rebar. NEC 250.66(B)sets a maximum of # 4 CU which is what he should have used for the 2,000 amp service. The problem now is what to do to correct or change. We're looking at building steel and metal water pipes to make up for the goof.

For what it is worth the local AJH makes guys like him chip up the slab, find rebar and fix it. It's a hard lesson but we rarely have to learn it twice.

The Ufer is part of the inspection before you pour the footer here. They should catch the undersized conductor then. If so there, the inspector owns some of the blame. I think he should help try to find another compliant way to fix this.

I think you are assuming the concrete was poured after it was inspected.

Clarification time...
New construction (or addition) ufer is installed before concrete pour by Building Inspector. He checks rebar, lengths, ties, clamp (approved) and # 4 AWG Cu minimum size.

Electrical Inspector does not see ufer/rebar only #4 at point of emergence from concrete.

If and when the ufer is NOT installed, or 'lost' it is no longer 'available' and cannot be used. The concrete is not mandated to be chipped, cut, etc. Other means of providing the ground are utilized, as before the ufer was an option

(New Jersey style)

Wow, your inspector installs the ground for you? Your inspectors are a lot nicer than mine!

I have fixed violations ... but we were all state employees so it wasn't that crazy.

ITO:
Funny you caught my typo...

Is anyone using a galv. ground rod tied to the rebar and stubbed out of the footer with a 90d at one end?