ECN Forum
Posted By: leespark Failed inspection - 07/13/07 05:05 PM
Very straight forward bathroom remodel and I failed the final inspection.

The inspector says the Panasonic exhaust fan-light needs to be GFCI protected. It is NOT above the tub, but approx 2' away from the tub centered in the remainder of the bathroom. I realize if it were above the tub it would need GFCI protection per 110.3(B). He says it is in the bathtub area which is 3' horiz. away from the tub.

I believe he is confused with 410.4(D) which does not allow (GFCI or not) a hanging light or PADDLE fan in that area. I don't want to bust holes, fish wires or pay $45 for a GFCI breaker.

Am I missing something??
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Failed inspection - 07/13/07 05:41 PM
I think you are right, but in this case I would consider that $45 a promotional item this month only for the first 10 callers and we'll throw in this handy carrot slicer at no extra cost. You will probably be meeting up with this inspector on other future jobs no? Think in the long term, or you could maybe use one of those gfi/switch combo units that they sell at the big orange stores.
Posted By: earlydean Re: Failed inspection - 07/13/07 07:29 PM
Don't kowtow to this inspector. Show him (in private) the code sections and make your point. You will get the reputation as a man who does not suffer fools, and, more importantly, as an electrician who knows the code. Inspectors who "get even" don't last long.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Failed inspection - 07/13/07 09:41 PM
True enough, earlydean!

Probably the most successful approach is to enter the vipers' nest (oops, I mean the inspectors' office :D), codebook in hand, and express absolute puzzlement that you simply cannot find the relevant section - could they be of some help?

This approach has some subtle advantages. First of all, having the Code in hand shows you're serious. Asking for their assistance is as non-confrontational as you can get. Finally, the inspectors are likely to be out in the field, so you're likely to wind up speaking to the boss .... who will most likely make your troubles disappear. No bruised egos or hard feelings ... just a little misunderstanding smile
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Failed inspection - 07/14/07 02:15 AM
Ah, ol' 110.3 (b).......mfg instructions....

Was the AHJ's opinion based on the defined 'space' in the Panasonic literature?? Did the AHJ quote/cite 110.3 (b)? Did he cite any Article?

NJ policy is an Article must be cited.

That all said; the opinions of my esteemed breathern above share a common sense approach. Just 'doing it' to get a PASS may not be the best thing, costs not being influential. Taking a 'stand' IF YOU ARE 100% sure you are within Code may be good; but make sure you are good first. MY first choice would be a basic discussion, or a 'sit down'.

Here in NJ, we have a Board of Construction Appeals as the final decision-makers in AHJ/Contractor type disagreements.

All of the above comments are my personal opinions, not to be confused with any official interpretations.

John
Posted By: leespark Re: Failed inspection - 07/14/07 03:11 AM
I asked for a code reference but he was unable to give me one at the time. I plan on going in to see him Monday with code book in hand. I had said I felt it was an issue of 110.3(B). He said it was another article regarding "bathtub zone". The only part of the code which I know of which refers to this 3' zone is 410.4(D) as I stated above.

I am 99% sure I am right but just want to be certain before I march in to protest.

I feel it is a matter of principle as Earl said.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Failed inspection - 07/14/07 01:09 PM
That's one of the major reasons that I think that the NEC needs to better define their terms and include distances in those definitions.

406.8(C) prohibits installation "within or directly over" the tub, but the term "bathtub and shower space" is never defined in the Code.

Personally, I don't think that 3' is unreasonable; but I DO agree that if it's not in the adopted Code and/or local amendments it's not enforcable.
Posted By: leespark Re: Failed inspection - 07/14/07 02:10 PM
Ghost,

I agree with you on the need for better definitions.

For example, the def. of a receptacle is "a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug".

One could argue that a bath exhaust fan has a receptacle within it. However, if that were the case 406.8(C) would forbid it no matter if it were GFCI protected or not to be installed above a tub. I don't think anyone would argue that they cannot go above a tub with GFCI protection.

I personally feel that a shower light SHOULD be required to have GFCI protection even more so than a bath fan. Couldn't you just see some Darwin candidate have a light bulb blow out in the middle of a shower and yell to his wife to pass him a new one.
Posted By: Alan Nadon Re: Failed inspection - 07/14/07 03:03 PM
Remember, most inspectors are human smile We sometimes make mistakes just like everyone else.
Take your Code book and talk to him.
This might also prevent him from making the next guy do the same thing until someone straightens him out.
He may have already had others do this and you can be the straightener.
Alan--an inspector.
Posted By: JJM Re: Failed inspection - 07/15/07 06:21 PM
I think a hybrid of the approaches here would be a good idea. Go ahead and install the breaker ($45, big deal) in the spirit of cooperation, noting how you can understand his position on the code. But as others here said, don't be a pushover either. With code book in hand, let him know your knowledge of the code, and diplomatically prove how he was incorrect in his determination.

Now you have put him on notice for the future, and at the same time assured your job will pass.

Sometimes you've just pick your battles. Something small like this just isn't worth a big battle. And remember your customer, and more importantly your reputation as an EC. The customer won't be too thrilled if your doesn't get signed off on quickly... and over what, a $45 breaker?

Joe
Posted By: ChicoC10 Re: Failed inspection - 07/16/07 06:09 PM
Or if the situation permits, framing,box volume,esthetics,etc., install a faceless GFI below the switch(es) with line and load power fished between the GFI and the switch(es).
Posted By: Alan Nadon Re: Failed inspection - 07/19/07 10:22 PM
Lee, did you meet with the inspector Monday and if so what was the outcome ?
This is Thursday.
Enquiring minds want to know.
Posted By: leespark Re: Failed inspection - 07/19/07 10:40 PM
Sorry for not posting sooner, I've had a crazy week.

Yes I did speak with him. As it turns out the inspector who made the original call is the assistant inspector. The head inspector told me that he will often request GFCI protection for the fan but realizes it is not enforcable and that he would sign the card. I said no problem, and I reconfigured the wiring to the have the fan and the shower light be GFCI protected.

In the end everbody is happy and the installation is extra code compliant. I guess I could have doe it from the beginning but I just really wanted some clarification.

I've decided that from now on I will GFI fans and shower lights as a habit just because it really is a better installation and if you plan your circuit it should not cost and extra time or money.
Posted By: joncon Re: Failed inspection - 07/20/07 03:49 AM
Quote
The head inspector told me that he will often request GFCI protection for the fan but realizes it is not enforcable and that he would sign the card.



Gotta hate those guys huh? They are the kind that give inspectors a bad rep.

If he requested it at a pre construction meeting, fine, no big deal... but to red tag like that was just wrong.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Failed inspection - 07/20/07 12:32 PM
Congrats.

Here's an suggestion that's worked well for me. It makes an inspector into a happy camper.

Tell him that the GFI requirement is a great idea, even though it's not enforcable. Then suggest that he get the City Council (or whoever) to adopt it as a local amendment to their Code.

He's happy because he had a good idea that was recognized as such.
He's happy (if it gets adopted) because he made a difference.
He's happy at you because you told him how to enforce his good idea.

Plus the next guy won't have the same run-in with an unenforceable wishlist item.
Posted By: Alan Nadon Re: Failed inspection - 07/21/07 05:32 PM
Sounds like someone need to have the difference between required and recommended explained.
Alan--
"it takes years of experience to know when to do nothing." smile
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