ECN Forum
Posted By: texassparky Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 01:43 AM
I am working in a house that has 2 large master closets. About 16'x 12'.The owner does'nt want flourscent lighting. She wants cans with black baffel trim and r40 blubs. But won't I need to install shower trims so that there isn't an exposed bulb. These can lay out just like the would if it were a kitchen. About 3' away from the wall all the way around. Hope this make sence.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 01:51 AM
A closet is a closet is a closet. The black baffle trim there will not pass a final inspection. I hate to say this, but... put in the required trims for inspection, inform the homeowner of the fire danger that exists, then after inspection put in the baffle trims. Most homeowners after hearing the words "fire" and "closet lights" will opt to do the right thing and use the proper trim for a closet recessed light.
Posted By: texassparky Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 01:59 AM
I could understand if these closet were like an coat closet in a hallway. But these closet have 11' ceilings. You would think these thing were bedrooms if you saw them before the clothes rod go in. As many cans as she wants I may need to talk her into flourscent wraps. Shower trims are a little to pricey.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 09:58 AM
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I hate to say this, but... put in the required trims for inspection, inform the homeowner of the fire danger that exists, then after inspection put in the baffle trims.

We absolutely can not condone or recommend this type of action.

This is a very unprofessional recommendation.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 01:37 PM
First, I'd try to educate her about the fire danger. However, she sounds unable to understand that she just might be wrong about something. Then I'd probably just put in what she wants and let the local Inspector knock them down.

If I wanted to maintain my credibility with the AHJ for doing quality work, I'd find a quiet way of letting him know that I knew that it wasn't right but that's what I was told to install. I'd also see if I couldn't give him a backdoor hint so that he wouldn't miss it on Final.

Also, IMHO, Iwire's right on.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 02:36 PM
Bob, what would you do in this situation?
Posted By: Zapped Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 02:55 PM
Just recently, I ran into the same situation and tried ghost307's approach - I just put them in and waited for the axe to fall on inspection - but it didn't work out that way.

It's an 8'X 14' walk-in closet (bigger than some of the apartments I've lived in!) and he wanted 3 cans long-ways up the middle. I did the speach, but it "had to match the rest of the house". OK, I'll let the inspector provide the motivation - right?

During final, the inspector looked right at them and continued without taking any notes, so I actually pulled him aside and inquired. His take on the deal was that the lamps did not present a fire risk, as they were on a 10' lid and up the middle, well away from the (completely boxed in) clothes cabinets, and they were also recessed.

I was left scratching my head, although this did make a certain amount of sense. I know that keyless sockets are a definate no-no, but are incandescent lamps specifically mentioned in the code?
Posted By: George Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 03:39 PM
A closet is not a closet is not a closet.

We are supposed to be professionals. In part, that means that we are aware of "closet fire hazards" and we are able to make decisions as to if such a hazard exists or not.

I see no hazard in this case.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 04:09 PM
Put in baffle trims, with CFL R-40 style lights. You'll likely not have anyone notice, and all will be happy.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 05:18 PM
I suggest you do not let a stubburn woman woman force you to install anything not up to code. Show her an illustration of the pertaining code from the NEC handbook or from a Mike Holt book. I bet she wears a seatbelt when she drives around, because the law says so and she doesn't like getting tickets. I bet she has a driver's license. I bet she pays taxes. I bet she stops for red lights. Why let her break the law, just cause she wants something that is clearly against it?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 05:56 PM
I like Reno's answer. Someone may even make full spectrum CFLs.
Posted By: chi spark Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 05:58 PM
12 X 16? Those are dressing rooms- any windows? If you hang clothes in a room, does it become a closet automatically? I think the AHJ is the final answer- just ask them.
Posted By: Zapped Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 08:40 PM
I like macmikeman's comparisons. I think I'll use that analogy for stubborn customers in the future, with your permission of course.?
Posted By: velect Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 10:27 PM
A little too pricey??????????

If this woman can afford two closets in a master bedroom that are 16x12 with 11' ceilings.......she can afford the right trims
Posted By: texassparky Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 11:32 PM
This home owner is really cool she understands that I am limted by the code on things that can be done. She just asked that there be lots of lights in all walk-in closets. If I put shower trims on these Juno can I have to install 40 watt bulbs instead of 65 watt with the baffel trims. Money is really not a concern to her, this house is about 10,000 sq ft under air. Over 6 million dollars.
Posted By: George Re: Walk in Closet - 01/23/07 11:47 PM
Get a copy of the plans, cross out the word "closet" whereever it appears, ans write "dressingroom."
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 02:37 AM
The size of a room does not designate what type of room it is. The prints will clearly designate the type of room. The room in question will require closed type incandescent fixtures. If she does not want the recessed shower trim type, then use your marketing skills to recommend some other type of legal fixture and maybe you will become the hero instead of the goat.

Flourescent lamps in an incandescent fixture would not pass inspection either. Any inspector that thinks he can change the code because he thinks so should not be inspecting as he is a menace to the industry.

You may not like what I have to say, but it is a free country. [Linked Image]
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 03:57 AM
Hey Zapped, Pierre said it , its a free country. (at least for now), so go ahead and use freely.
Posted By: trobb Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 04:38 AM
Semi off-topic, but why on earth does ANYONE need that big a "closet?"
Posted By: caselec Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 04:41 AM
If you are going to use 6” lights use Juno IC-2 housings with 242 trims. They use 75PAR38 lamps.
http://junolighting.com/pdf/spec/G1_1_0.pdf

Curt
Posted By: texassparky Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 04:49 AM
Thanks I'll look into using them. This house has two master bedrooms. One up one down. I think the mother in-law is moving into the one down stairs. My guess is the reason the closet is so big she must have tons of shoes.

[This message has been edited by texassparky (edited 01-23-2007).]
Posted By: mxslick Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 06:58 AM
[rant on] [Linked Image]

Oh, for crying out loud!! This situation is another example of the Code being out of touch with reality!!

Most walk-in closets are bigger than the average bathroom!! Yet the all-knowing, all-seeing bloody Code allows recessed lighting in a bathroom!!

[rant off] [Linked Image]


Given the description of the room and ceiling dimensions by texassparky, both my friend the local AHJ and I agree..put the recessed lights in, right down the middle of the room, maintaining a minimum 36" clearance from the shelves/cabinets and call it a day.

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First, I'd try to educate her about the fire danger.

What danger in the scenario the OP has? Seems if standard design is followed for the walk-in, the nearest a fixture would be to anything is at least 4 feet. This is based on the 12' width and I'm accounting for 2' deep cabinets.

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His take on the deal was that the lamps did not present a fire risk, as they were on a 10' lid and up the middle, well away from the (completely boxed in) clothes cabinets, and they were also recessed.

Funny, almost word-for-word on my AHJ's take on this subject. Nice to see another AHJ who has common sense. [Linked Image]

Bold following added by me:

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A closet is not a closet is not a closet.

We are supposed to be professionals. In part, that means that we are aware of "closet fire hazards" and we are able to make decisions as to if such a hazard exists or not.

I see no hazard in this case.

Well said!! [Linked Image]

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The size of a room does not designate what type of room it is. The prints will clearly designate the type of room.

and:

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Get a copy of the plans, cross out the word "closet" whereever it appears, ans write "dressingroom."

Size matters not. Just ask Yoda. [Linked Image] And yes, the prints should clearly designate the type of room. The idea of crossing out the designation on the as-builts wouldn't fly, BUT, if the plans originally designate the room as most anything other than a closet...guess what? The recessed lights are legal and should be allowed.

Again, the Code needs to get into step with reality. But realistically, as was discussed here before, that would make the Code even more bloated, as it cannot possibly cover every situation.

That's why one must hope the AHJ is a person of reason and good judgement. [Linked Image] (My experiences so far show that most of them are.)

edited to fix html

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 01-24-2007).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 09:53 AM
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Bob, what would you do in this situation?

I would not violate the NEC.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 09:55 AM
Tony.

If you do not like the code work to have it changed.

Your AHJ is wrong to let it slide and you are wrong for doing it. (Unless your area has an amendment.)

It is very simple.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 03:27 PM
Sometimes, I think architects deliberately try to muddy the waters! Look at these other examples:

1) "Open" kitchens and combined counters / bars make the boundary between the kitchen and the rest of the house indefinite;

2) The addition of hot tubs, and "open" baths, to bedrooms makes the distinction of these two rooms open to debate;

3) As in this example, combined massive closets with 'dressing room' features start another debate; and,

4) The current "Casita" and courtyard design even opens a debate as to 'separate residences.'

I'm sure there are other examples. Perhaps we ought to remember them, as well as other judgment calls we must make, the next time someone asserts that the electrician is simply a body with a toolbelt!
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 06:54 PM
What about NEC '99 90-4?
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90-4 Enforcement
..... The AHJ may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternate methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety

You can't say the AHJ is wrong for allowing it. You do still have to (and are allowed to) exercise judgement.

[This message has been edited by Jps1006 (edited 01-24-2007).]
Posted By: George Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 07:54 PM
I thought the process was:

1) Determine what the customer wants,

2) Draw up plans that conform to the code,

3) Apply for the permit.

Certainly renaming the space "dressingroom" from "closet" at step 2 is proper.

It seems to make everyone happy.

---

The NEC is really not that complex. Anyone who does electrical work comes across issues like this everyday. Each picks a solution.

A less inclined worker will simply put in closed fixtures and be done with it.

But a worker who is worth paying is going to find a solution that is closer to what the customer wants and needs.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 08:46 PM
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You can't say the AHJ is wrong for allowing it. You do still have to (and are allowed to) exercise judgement.

I will be very surprised if many of us have met the AHJ.

The person we run into on the job is typically just an inspector.

The AHJ is the person or more likely the office that is charged with adopting the NEC.

Many times inspectors lead us to believe they are the AHJ when in reality they are not.

What happens if there is a fire?

Is the person that claimed to be the AHJ and let this slide going to remember that when asked?

This is an NEC forum, we are not going to recommend ignoring, violating or selective enforcement of the NEC.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 08:48 PM
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But a worker who is worth paying is going to find a solution that is closer to what the customer wants and needs.

If that solution violates the NEC that work will not have a job with the company I work for.

If the customer wants hack work they can hire a handyman.
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 09:27 PM
There are two ways to handle this:
  • Install covered incandescent and/or fluorescent.
  • Have the AHJ, not necessarily an inspector (but often times around here it is) allow the open recessed can if it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved


Any other way is an NEC violation. I certainly would not condone changing the trims after inspection or deciding to take selective application or enforcement of the NEC into your own hands.

Getting permission from the AHJ is not an NEC violation and it is a legitimate and professional way to handle this.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/24/07 10:02 PM
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Getting permission from the AHJ is not an NEC violation and it is a legitimate and professional way to handle this.

For me The only way I would consider this is if I could be assured I was really dealing with the AHJ and that AHJ was giving me something in writing that shows they where OK with it.

As without any paper to go back to it is an NEC violation that I could be brought into question for.

I would not put my license on the line simply because a customer does not like the looks of enclosed trims vs black baffles.

It surprises me that so many would.

To each their own.
Posted By: George Little Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 01:18 AM
Yes Sir Bob- Your right on target. If the inspector doesn't give you permission in writing he is breaking the law. (See Special Permission in Article 100)
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 02:40 AM
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I would not violate the NEC.

So you have no solution other than to point out that my suggestion was unprofessional.

So my suggestion now would be, sorry lady, no lights for you. Fluorescent, shower trim, or no lights. NEC says so.

Sure she'll be telling all her friends about how pleased she was with my service and how I couldn't help her. [Linked Image]

I realize you were pointing out that this is clearly unprofessional and a violation. That's ok, I can take it. I didn't particuliarly like the way you singled me out though. What I'm failing to understand is how you can condemn me for making a suggestion but offer no other idea, or plan, just a "I wouldn't do that" answer. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[This message has been edited by ShockMe77 (edited 01-24-2007).]
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 03:22 AM
I actually had the power of the pencil of AHJ in my state job and It was something I didn't take lightly but if those cans were installed as far away from the "storage space" as they would be if they were "outside" a closet in a normal house I might give him a huss.
If they want open cans within arms length of storage space it is "in" the closet.
BTW 410.8 does not say "dwelling". How do you deal with this in a motel where the "closet" is an open clothes rod in the hall, just inside the door. Is that a hall or a closet?
Saying you are looking at what is written on the plan is a cop out. Fire can't read plans.
Posted By: macmikeman Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 03:25 AM
You can put covered incandescent fixtures in there so long as you meet the clearances as was posted earlier. I go thru this with headstrong bimbo's all the time. They have to be mighty damn good looking to get me to budge.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 04:04 AM
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If you do not like the code work to have it changed.

Be careful what you wish for... [Linked Image]

We all know what would be first on my chopping block. [Linked Image]

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Your AHJ is wrong to let it slide and you are wrong for doing it.

I take it you're unfamiliar with 90-4? Or do you choose to ignore it?

And that Article of the Code allows the AHJ the right to make that judgement call. Who are any of us to say that he's so wrong in this case that the bloody house will burn? It would be his call anyway!

Anyone have documented proof that recessed cans installed as planned here have started any fires/created any hazards beyond the normal use of such lighting in a small space? (edited to add: And since when is 12' by 16' a small space, anyway? That's as big as a lot of master bedrooms.)

As for local amendments, that of course varies. But, I can tell you absolutely that the last six or seven installs for home screening rooms had master suites with walk-in closets. And guess what kind of lighting was installed? Of those, two had LV Halogens!! All inspected and signed off by the AHJ. (As was my projection equipment.) And I can tell you, that AHJ is tough.

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It is very simple.

No, it is not. That's why this thread is revealing so many different answers to a question that can go either way.

We all know there are no cut-and-dry solutions to a lot of the issues that crop up in any electrical installation. Even the simple set up of a film projection system, despite using the same equipment for 40 screens, you'll see about 40 different variations on set-up, layouts, sometimes panel schedules, conduit layouts, etc.

The Code does allow flexibility. And so far, in this case, as the install was described, not one person here has come up with any solid reasons why one can't use recessed lights!!!

Oh, I have also noticed that no one has quoted the exact Code Article and subsection,etc. this would allegedly violate.

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This is an NEC forum, we are not going to recommend ignoring, violating or selective enforcement of the NEC.

No one is suggesting such. What the OP is looking for is guidance on the situation at hand. And so far, as he has described the proposed installation, there is no violation!

As for selective enforcement, does anyone here believe for a minute that a form of it isn't going on all the time? Take a good hard look at anyone's installation (mine included) and I guarantee you will find some (albeit minor) violation of some Article of the Code.

No inspector is all-seeing, and will not look at each and every fixture, receptacle and j-box in anything other than a very minor addition or renovation. It would be physically impossible and I promise that no one here, me included, would ever pass an inspection first time around if that were so.

Sheesh. Texassparky, talk to your AHJ, get his/her take on this and let us all know what the outcome is. [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 01-25-2007).]
Posted By: Alan Nadon Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 04:44 PM
Recessed can light with open trim in large walk in closet / dressing room.
Could be OK, or a violation of 410.8.B
The Inspector might have "not noticed" the alleged violation.
Regarding the comment about "Special Permission" being in writing. I had a contractor ask for it only once.
The question was about clear space above the service equipment when the rule was to extend the space all the way to the ceiling/roof. 14 feet above the switch board was intake ductwork for the ventalation syatem. As the inspector I didn't "see" any violation. the general wanted me to put it in writing. I explained that if my pen touched the paper it would be to write up the violation that he had "pointed out" but, I had "missed".
He decided not to see it either.
Next Code cycle the installation was in compliance when they changed the rules. [Linked Image]
Alan--
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/25/07 09:14 PM
Tony I am not going to respond to your entire rant.


by iwire
Quote
This is an NEC forum, we are not going to recommend ignoring, violating or selective enforcement of the NEC.

by mxslick
Quote
No one is suggesting such.

You need to read the second post in this thread.

As for the rest I stand by what I said.

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For me The only way I would consider this is if I could be assured I was really dealing with the AHJ and that AHJ was giving me something in writing that shows they where OK with it.


Remember inspectors are rarely the AHJ, don't let them snow ya.


Bob
Posted By: mxslick Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 07:40 PM
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Tony I am not going to respond to your entire rant.

Who's ranting? [Linked Image] I'm trying to point out what a lot of us appear to be seeing that you may not be seeing. But you seem unwilling to admit that we all have different backgrounds, each area may have the local amendments that you pointed out in one of your replies to me, and finally you still haven't provided a direct Code reference as to the specific violation in this case. Alan mentions 410.8.b, which would disallow an open trim in a closet.

But, the OP still hasn't clarified as to what this space is called out as in the plans. If, despite it's physical size, it is called out on the reviewed, approved by the AHJ plans as a closet, then I can agree that it must use enclosed trims or fluorescents. If it is called out as anything else (dressing room, dressing suite, etc.), and approved by the building and safety dept as shown in said plans, then by following the strictest interpretation of the Code, then a standard recessed trim of any type should be allowed to pass.

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You need to read the second post in this thread.


I did and agree that that would not be the correct approach to take. But again, in this case, there is no clear evidence of a violation in the first place. I do not condone willful violations of Code either. And I don't think that person intended it to read as such.

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Remember inspectors are rarely the AHJ, don't let them snow ya.

I just re-read Arts. 90 and 100 of my '99 NEC, and there is nothing there saying that the inspector is not the AHJ.

Now can you or someone here (Alan, perhaps?) define AHJ since the Code doesn't?

Seems that by your reasoning, we've all been snowed for a long time. [Linked Image]

And in this area, the inspector is most certainly the AHJ.
Posted By: Roger Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 08:14 PM
Tony,
Quote
Now can you or someone here (Alan, perhaps?) define AHJ since the Code doesn't?
the code does infact difine AHJ.

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Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.

FPN: The phrase ``authority having jurisdiction'' is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the AHJ may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the AHJ. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the AHJ; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the AHJ.

In NC the AHJ is the Department Of Insurance (D.O.I.) which is under the Office of the State Fire Marshal (OSFM)

Inspectors can only inforce what is addopted and / or ammended at government level.

It's kind of scary to think any body calling themself an inspector can make law

But anyways, now you can see where it is important to read the definitions in the NEC as well as any other articles that may apply to your situation at the time.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 01-26-2007).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 08:32 PM
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I do not condone willful violations of Code either. And I don't think that person intended it to read as such.

Tony read this

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put in the required trims for inspection, inform the homeowner of the fire danger that exists, then after inspection put in the baffle trims.

That is a willful violation of the NEC, if you agree with me or not means nothing. I am one of this forums moderators and I say we will not allow that type of recommendation here on this forum.

If you have an issue with that you will need to take it up with Bill A.

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And in this area, the inspector is most certainly the AHJ.

Tony, ask yourself why do you think that?

Is it because you have seen anything in writing that says so or is it just a case of always assuming it to be so?

As Roger points out few areas will let one person make or change rules at will.

Do yourself a favor and check into it before you make such strong statements.
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 08:33 PM
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In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the AHJ

now there's a scary thought [Linked Image]

(edit to fix [i] and add):

Can anyone cite an example where this was true??

[This message has been edited by Jps1006 (edited 01-26-2007).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 08:42 PM
Shock, sorry I did not see your post before.

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So you have no solution other than to point out that my suggestion was unprofessional.

I am one of the moderators, it is my job to point out poor or illegal recommendations.

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So my suggestion now would be, sorry lady, no lights for you. Fluorescent, shower trim, or no lights. NEC says so.

In a nutshell YES.

Would I present it to the customer like that?

Most likely not, but the result would be that they would not be getting the step baffles with incandescent fixtures.

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Sure she'll be telling all her friends about how pleased she was with my service and how I couldn't help her.

So what?

Would you bend the rules if they asked you to run 14 AWG for 20 amp circuits?

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I didn't particularly like the way you singled me out though.

You where singled out as you where the only person that suggested changing the trims after inspection.

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What I'm failing to understand is how you can condemn me for making a suggestion but offer no other idea, or plan, just a "I wouldn't do that" answer.

Because that is the answer, I will not violate the NEC just because a customer does not like the what the NEC requires.

The solutions are very obvious.

Any enclosed incandescents or some fluorescents, it ain't rocket science.

I hope there are no hard feelings and that you understand where I am coming from.

Bob
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/26/07 09:22 PM
By the way, no one has asked if I actually thought this installation was a fire hazard.

Well I don't, I don't see any safety issue with the installation as described.

I don't agree with many NEC rules, I still grudgingly follow them.

But I am not going to complain about them as I have never taken the time to put in a proposal.

Any of us can put in a proposal for a code change, they will be looked at. We have people at this forum who have gotten code changes accepted. Not all accepted proposals are from the manufacturers.

So when I suggested to Tony that he put in a code change proposal I was entirely serious.

We have until November 7 2008 to get in any proposals for the 2011 code.

It is to late to make changes to the 2008 NEC.

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-26-2007).]
Posted By: chi spark Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 12:41 AM
A little off the current here, with one question for TexasSparky-
Which way does the door swing for these 12 X 16 rooms, in or out?
Posted By: texassparky Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 01:05 AM
The door swings into the closet. Why do you ask?
Posted By: chi spark Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 01:30 AM
Just interested, sometimes that can help define a room type- I still think those are dressing rooms. Any natural lighting(windows, skylights) or receptacles?
Have you asked the AHJ yet?
Posted By: texassparky Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 03:01 AM
Yes they do have windows. And they have two plugs one is for an iron and the other is for a shoe polisher. I plan on talking with the AHJ sometime next week. Thanks guys when I posted this I was just looking for advice. I didn't want it to get heated. We are all brothers in this field. So now all in for a group hug.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 03:07 AM
Roger, thank you for that information. [Linked Image]

I only have a copy of '99 Code and I couldn't find that information in it. I stand corrected on that issue. [Linked Image]


Bold emphasis following is mine:


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<snip>the AHJ may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority.

I'm not as dumb as I look [Linked Image]
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 12:00 PM
Tony no one is saying you are dumb.

Yes both Roger and I are well aware the FPN mentions electrical inspectors.

It does not prove anything.

Here again is the entire FPN.

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FPN: The phrase ``authority having jurisdiction'' is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the AHJ may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the AHJ. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the AHJ; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the AHJ.

Would you say this means home owners in your area are the AHJ?

You need to find out the laws for your area.

If you send me an email telling me what area you live I will see if I can find out.

You may be right, your electrical inspector may be the AHJ, it is much more likely they are not.

Instead of fighting try to keep an open mind and learn something new.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 12:04 PM
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Just interested, sometimes that can help define a room type- I still think those are dressing rooms. Any natural lighting(windows, skylights) or receptacles?
Have you asked the AHJ yet?

Typically the area is defined by what it is called on the approved prints.

If is says dressing room than it is, if it says closet it is.

No group hugs but I am not 'heated' I am just trying to put facts out not assumptions.
Posted By: Roger Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 01:22 PM
Along with Bob's post, the FPN is simply giving examples of what may be an AHJ, whether or not at any given time in history it has been the case or not.

It could have included wording such as "your wife's brother if he smokes menthol cigarettes", "your high school principal", "your towns most succesfull liquor store owner", your towns least succesfull liquor store owner", "your towns most recent chili cook off champion", (I could have been our AHJ one year with that being the case [Linked Image]) or what have you, the reality is that in most areas it is a government agency.

As far as changing what a room is on a print, here it would have to be resubmitted for the permitting and plan review, otherwise it is inspected as it was permitted.

Roger
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 04:46 PM
Roger,

I understand the sarcasm and humor (congrats by the way Chili Champ [Linked Image] ) in your post, but I have to disagree with the suggestion or implication that the list is ambiguous and meaningless, when the reality is that the AHJ is very likely to be one of the people in that list, and if you need to find out, those would be the best places to start. The first list concerns public safety, so that would apply to most of us. If your intent was to say that inclusion in the list alone does not define the AHJ, then point made.

Bob, quite honestly I'm a little surprised that it's a moderator pushing this mood (and yes, heat) with subtle put downs and suggestion that you're the only one operating based on fact.
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You may be right, your electrical inspector may be the AHJ, it is much more likely they are not.
What fact or statistic do you have to support that?

I agree, the first response to the OP was out of bounds and dealt with appropriately.
But since then it's been, "do yourself a favor, you might learn something, the solutions are obvious, It is very simple." And then a suggestion that everyone else here is willing to put their license on the line for this??
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Your AHJ is wrong to let it slide and you are wrong for doing it. (Unless your area has an amendment.)
Then your argument cleverly moves form that being a misstatement to (paraphrase) "whoever is giving you permission probably isn't the AHJ anyway".

Don't get me wrong, I find you extremely knowledgeable, a great arguer and edgy at times which make for a great read.... I just can’t help but think there are some interesting points here being made that may be getting lost because you are coming across (at least on my screen) as being in attack mode. That’s fine, I’m just a little surprised seeing it from a moderator.
Posted By: iwire Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 05:17 PM
jps.

by me
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You may be right, your electrical inspector may be the AHJ, it is much more likely they are not.

by jps
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What fact or statistic do you have to support that?

I do not have any statistic or fact to support that.

However in the three states I hold a license in, MA, RI, and CT it is a State level official or agency that is the AHJ.

It makes little sense to have every inspector be the "AHJ" just for this very reason brought up in this thread.

If each city or towns inspector was the AHJ then an EC would have to be a mind reader to figure out each local AHJs interpretation of the NEC.

It makes much more sense to have the AHJ to be one central office, agency, person etc to make the interruptions and the decisions of the code allows of the AHJ.

This would be the same as saying that a police officer could change the laws at will.

When it is actually the courts or legislature that makes the laws.

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Then your argument cleverly moves form that being a misstatement to (paraphrase) "whoever is giving you permission probably isn't the AHJ anyway".

Well I agree to a point, when I said....

"Your AHJ is wrong to let it slide and you are wrong for doing it. (Unless your area has an amendment.)"

....I should have said...

"Your Inspector is wrong to let it slide and you are wrong for doing it. (Unless your area has an amendment.)"

...and then I should have brought up the fact that the inspector is not likely the AHJ.

Now lastly, I do not have much patients when people are quick to criticize the NEC but have never tried to change it.

IMO, either try to use the NEC as is or make the effort to change it.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-27-2007).]
Posted By: Roger Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 05:18 PM
Jps, thanks for the congrats.

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but I have to disagree with the suggestion or implication that the list is ambiguous and meaningless

Actually the list is meaningless, FPN's carry no weight, they are simply suggestions or possible examples which may or may not be any more substantial than what we might come up with.

IMO, the FPN should not even be included with the definition.

The definition
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Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.
is pretty clear to me.

Roger
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/27/07 07:10 PM
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It makes little sense to have every inspector be the "AHJ" just for this very reason brought up in this thread.

If each city or towns inspector was the AHJ then an EC would have to be a mind reader to figure out each local AHJs interpretation of the NEC.

It makes much more sense to have the AHJ to be one central office, agency, person etc to make the interruptions and the decisions of the code allows of the AHJ.

I wish I could get you on the IL lobby for a unified state electrical code. Around here every village and city is its own AHJ whether we have a population of 10,000 or millions and whether there are several inspectors or one.

Since every AHJ around here is different with slight variations on amendments, we effectively have the same situation described above that requires us to be mind readers when we cross the railroad tracks.

I have met inspectors that claim to be the AHJ, kind of your only sheriff in town type. I had no reason to doubt it and still don't. Remember agencies and offices consist of people, and some of them are very small (1 man).

But I also had my town's inspector refuse to allow the exact situation described here originally when I asked for exception and he told me flat out he was only an inspector (a very good one at that) and not the AHJ.
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Now lastly, I do not have much patience when people are quick to criticize the NEC but have never tried to change it.
That’s fine, everyone has their hot button issues, but criticism can be the first steps to change, and I have found a lot of the criticisms around here thought provoking whether from an activist or not.
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Walk in Closet - 01/28/07 12:28 AM
Bob, I've thought about this the past couple of days and have come to the conclusion that as a moderator you are asked to guide the ship the best way you know how. I think you have done that to the best of your ability. No hard feelings here. Afterall, I do electrical construction for a living and I shouldn't have acted so sensitive.

--Ron
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