A homeowner wants to install a flat screen TV over a tub. There is about a one foot 'deck' area between the tub and the wall on which the TV will be installed apx. three or four feet above the tub water level. The TV needs a recept (behind the TV) for power.

This is tub only, not a shower.

Is this installation allowed?

680.71 would apply, I believe, and thus this installation is allowable as long as the TV manufacturer doesn't say the TV can't be in this area.

Sound good?

No it does not sound good, it sounds incredibly bad and I would not do it for them.

Take a look at 406.8(C)

Is it permissible to daisy-chain 3 GFCI receptacles in a row, just to make doubly/triply sure it's going to work?

Code wise you can daisy chain an infinite number of GFCIs.

You still can not put a receptacle in the tube area.

You also are not supposed to pass cords through walls.

Do we have a difinition of "tub area"? I've always understood "tub space" was the footprint of the tub or shower and up to the ceiling?
Edit to add the following comment: I see a lot of jobs where the deck around the tub is rather large and I've not had a problem with a receptacle in the tub "area" that I could quote a code section for a violation. Tough call. Always ask for GFCI protection. In the "tub or shower space" - no receptacles.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 11-15-2006).]

680.71 clearly allows recepts less than five feet from the inside walls of the tub with GFCI protection. So the question is (as already said) what is the definition of 'tub area'? If it's the one, two, or three walls and ceiling that surround the tub, then would it be acceptable to put a recept just around the corner of a wall and run the cord around the wall and plug it in?

What about free standing tubs? What is that tub area?

Unfortunately, I think 680.71 throws a real kink in 406.8(C).

680.71 is under the heading for hydromassage tubs.
All the general use electronic equipment I have seen has a warning to keep it away from water.
The only installation I ever saw that looked safe was where they built a closet at the end of the tub with a window into the bathroom. The T.V and receptacle were in the closet and the owner used a remote control.
Alan--

What does keeping something 'away from water' mean?

I think someone should propose similar wording from 410.4(D) for 406.8(C).

2011 here we come.

I have delt with this several times. Same case scenario you speak of.
Tub with a one foot tile area extending from one tile length above the top of the tub to the wall.

I have never been successfull with getting this by anyone:-)

so is everyone saying that a gfci receptacle on a wall perpendicular to the shower/tub about 1ft from the shower/tub is acceptable?

This subject needs some serious thought. I learned just yestrday that at least one Japanese firm makes a TV specifically for mounting in / over the bathtub.

A very slow loading site, visit http://www.monotsukuri.net/japan/bathtv/bathtv.htm

Yes, unless it is a mobile home, than it must be at least 30" from the tub and shower space.

I dunno... I certainly wouldn't feel confident installing a receptacle within reach from inside a bathtub.



This ones INSIDE THE TUB!!

Different areas have different practices.

The Japanese are neither stupid, nor careless.

Remember, that pic is of a Japanese appliance, in a Japanese home setting. We do not know what practices there might be, that led them to consider this appropriate.

Please note that the text in that web site make reference to the fact that the Japanese use their tubs in a manner quite different from ours.


If they have found a 'safe' way to do this ... sooner or later we will be faced with the same issues.

When I read 2005 406.8(C) I am not sure one of those clock receptacles an inch back in the wall wouldn't be legal. Certainly it sounds legal to have one set back a foot on a ledge. You can have one a few inches away on the vanity side of the tub.
I like the idea of the "TV behind the glass" idea but I can't make a code case for it. Hopefully that new TV is certified double insulated and damp location safe.

Anyway you slice it, water and electricity is the same anywhere in the world.

Hi reno

I wonder if that T.v. is Listed for UL in the US? I like the enclosure idea with GFI protection the best.

If you bought one in Europe it wouldn't work here anyway. We are one of the few countries who cling to NTSC TV.

Why not install the tv on the other side of a glass window that cuts it off from the tub area. there is no way a person in a tub should be able to operate any controls on the tv. Only a remote.

Alan, I think you brought up a good point. 680.71 does refer to hydromassage tubs. Non-hydromassage tubs don't necessarily have to be allowed to comply with this section.

Most hydromassage tubs I see have all metal and water isolated from contact to ground due to plastic water piping. (not sure if a current could actually travel through the water to metal though)

Whereas standard tubs I see are typically piped in directly using copper. Although the increased use of PEX may change this too.

If you are in a tub that is isolated from ground by plastic piping methods, what are your chances of getting shocked while in the tub?

Steve- Look at 406.8(C) That is the rule for tubs and 680.72 taking you there. No receptacles in the tub space. And it has been determined that for conventional wisdom the foot print of the tub and up to the ceiling is the tub space.

Steve when I read your post a second time, I guess I don't clearly understand your point. But for informational purposes you are required to bond all metal piping systems and metal parts in contact with the circulating water. This makes on think that metal is the trigger that has us bonding.

We all know that water conducts electricity (normally) but the '05 code makes it clear that if the water supply is non-metallic it doesn't require even the fauset to be bonded.

My question is now, what do we bond to? Since we often have double insulated pumps requireing no bonding, what are we really doing with our bond wire? With a pool, we know we tie to the EGC of the circuit if it's a double insulated pump.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 01-28-2007).]

Steve, this is one area where electricity seems to defy the laws of physics. I'm not saying that physics is wrong, but rather suspect that 'more needs to be known.'

I am thinking of the little shocks most of us have received ... while wearing rubber soled shoes, and standing on a fiberglass ladder. I'm just not comfortable assuming the lack of a conductive path.

Yet, I think it's just a matter of time before electricity enters the bathing area. Heaven alone knows what appliances will be invented that, in a few years, we just won't be able to do without.

I am a bit stumped on what approach to take. I see the GFI as a place to start ... but not the final answer.

George-One point I was trying to make is that a standard tub does not have to be allowed to comply with 680.71 because it is not a hydro-massage tub. This may be a moot point if the 'tub area' in regards to recepts is the foot print of the tub. But, 680.71 is only important if you have ahydro massage tub in a room that is not a bathroom since all recepts in bathrooms need to be GFCI anyways.

In regards to the 2nd and 3rd paragraph, I don't think I was really trying to make a point as much as bring actual reality of different scenarios into the conversation.

If you have, for instance, a tub faucet that is isolated from ground due to plastic piping, why would anyone want to run a bond wire from the faucet to a grounded portion of the electrical system? Wouldn't this increase the chance of shock, not reduce it?

Finally, I am not ultimately satisfied with the definition of 'tub area' as it pertains to receptacles. A clear definition as when describing where pendant fixtures are not allowed would be less confusing.

Reno, I'd be willing to bet you never had an electrical current travel through your feet wearing rubber sole shoes standing on a fiberglass ladder. I've surely bumped my elbow into the steel bar joists and been zapped, or been dead locked on a 120v ckt because there was a tiny hole in the piece of tape on my strippers. What the results would be if you dropped your radio in a tub that is isolated from ground, I am definitely not sure and don't want to find out, but I've got a feeling you may not get seriously shocked if at all.

One other thing--I quite often have electricians bond the motor of a tub to the copper water piping that feeds the unit (all units I have seen then have plastic circulation piping). This is wrong as you are now using the water pipes as an EGC. I quite often have to tell them to remove this. The motor is already bonded using the third wire (ground) in the cordset.

Only if the tub has isolated metal piping should it be bonded to the motor. But then again if it is isolated metal piping, why would you want to increase the possibility of it becoming a path to ground? Seems backwards to me.

Steve,

Section 680.74 requires all metal piping systems in contact with the circulating water to be bonded together. This means under the tub. There is no problem with parallel paths in the grounding conductor path. In fact the more the merrier.

Earl if you read what Steve was saying closely you will find you pretty much said the same thing.

The copper supply pipe is not part of the circulating water so there is no need to connect to it.

That said I don't see it as doing any harm, they are both already connected together at the service so connecting to it again will limit potential between parts.

Steve said:


I think the point that should be made is that "area" is to broad a term and I like "space" being the term used with respects the tub as a more definitive term. We do have cases where a HMBT is installed in a room other than a bathroom and the wiring in this other than bathroom only has to comply with the requirements of the non-bathroom needs. This is a tough call because the code doesn't address it. I've inspected just such an installation and there were no questions when I "suggested" to the contractor that he GFCI protected the receptacles within 6 feet of the tub.

iwire-the only problem is I don't see copper water piping listed under 250.118. If you bond the motor to the supply piping, you are using it as an EGC, right?

The equipment grounding conductor is the grounding wire in the cord connecting the pump. it is also in the circuit that supplies the receptacle the pump is plugged into.
Bonding the non-current carrying pump housing to the copper water piping is bonding only, and keeps both at the same potential.
Under a fault to ground condition the copper water pipe would parallel the EGC but, the water pipe is not intended to replace the function of the EGC.
Alan--

Very well said Mr. Nadon.

250.104(A)(1)--Bonding of metal water piping is not allowed anywhere other than the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor, or the grounding electrode.

You may be calling it bonding, but when you bond the EGC to a metal water pipe that is not metallically isolated from the rest of the system, the water pipe is a parallel EGC and that is not allowed.

Why do you think you can't parallel an EGC? Ever worked in health care?

The way the code is written, you almost have to end up with multiple 'parallel' ground paths.

One example that comes to mind is MC cable; the outer jacket is required to be bonded, plus there is the insulated ground wire.

I believe Steve got confused - as all of us have had happen - between the "grounded" conductor and the "grounding" conductor. The first is the 'neutral,' and the second is the 'ground.'

I have seen inspectors who should know better saying the 680.26 bonding grid should be isolated from the EGC system. I am not sure how you would do that if you have a grounded pump, a heater, power pool cover, or an underwater light. There are certainly other places where these could get bonded toghther like a metal box on the screen cage.
They just misunderstand the FPN that says it is not required to extend the 8ga solid to the panel.

Sure you can bond a grid to the EGC, that grid is not the water system for the house. Sure you have to bond metallically isolated sections of metal that may become energized. But when you have a complete metal water piping system, bonding a piece of equipment to it at any point other than as allowed in 250.104, I contend it is wrong and also not a good idea. You risk someone getting shocked at any point on the water system if the motor shorts to the casing if it is bonded to the water piping system. Imagine bonding a gutter at the top section, to say a recept installed in the eave, then bonding it again to a recept near grade. If something shorts out on the eave recept, the gutter becomes a ground path and if someone is touching it could get shocked. Same concept for the water piping.

I don't know what you guys see normally, but all I have ever seen is copper or galvanized water piping from the main all the way throughout the building and that is the reference of thinking I am using. I haven't seen any PEX used in this area.

There is nothing wrong with parallel EGC's as long as they are one of the types allowed by 250.118, which copper tubing is not.