Today an inspector told me I cant put a flow and tamper switch on the same zone. My understanding is that they can be on same zone if they provide separate alarm and supervisory annunciation. This is a non addressable system. this is only thing on that zone and is programed waterflow/sup 1st floor. Am I correct???

How exactly were you planning to test for all those conditions on two wires of a non-addressable system?
Joe

They have to be separate or addressible: The tamper is a "trouble" or "supervisory" signal; the water flow is an "alarm" signal.

they are not separate but they do send different codes to central monitoring.
the zone is programed waterflow/supervisory.
flow switch sends alarm,tamper sends suprevision,trouble sends trouble.they are separate signals.there is also a separate ground fault LED. there is 2 resistors panel reads them.

sprkrob
Help me out here guy. I've done a fair amount of fire alarm work and I'm at a complete loss as to how you get separate supervisory and alarm indications on a single zone with non addressable equipment.
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Tom Horne

I've done a bit of FA myself and have never seen this one either. Please post back with the name and model of the panel.

OK
the panel reads 4.7K from EOL. You connect WF then 1.1k resistor then tamper then 3.6K then back through NEG. to panel. The panel reads the resistors. Pulls & smokes just have the 4.7 EOL on those zones. If the flow goes it reads 4.7 and goes to alarm. If tamper closes it reads 3.6 and supervision goes .You have to put 1.1 before tamper so panel can't read it. WF is NO, SS is NC. You program these zones to read it this way.

OH,
Trouble and supervisory are 2 different signals when programmed this way.

All I'm going to say is : Thank the powers to be for Addressable systems !!
Beats the hell out of those old hard wired systems.

Sprkrob is correct, I have done this in the past also.

I have also just used the tamper (with no reduced resistor) to show an open circuit and activate a trouble/supervisory signal.

I think the inspector is wrong and just not familiar with the installation.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-04-2006).]

To convince the inspector, all you have to do is show him the schematic in the installation book. [You know, that packing material we always toss away with the box the annunciator came in.] All fire alarm equipment must be installed per manufacturer's instructions and be listed.

Roger Moderator
posted 08-04-2006 09:13 PM
Roger
I wouldn't think that causing a fire alarm trouble signal by opening the End Of Line resister would be an adequate way to indicate valve tampering. I always though that tamper and supervision had to be discrete signals for the sake of sending the correct response. Supervision calls for an alarm technician. Tamper calls for security or building maintenance and or the Fire Marshal.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 08-07-2006).]

Tom, it was my experience with these older systems that this was always a dedicated zone/circuit for the tamper(s)and flow, the trouble signal for this zone was nonsilenceable (I don't think that's a word) and was annunciated and monitored as to being a tamper, the PIV's were done the same.

Roger

Roger Moderator Roger
I still don't see how the central, remote, or proprietary signal receiving station would differentiate between some failure of the alarm systems wiring and a valve tampering event. The UL standard governing UL listed Central Stations would require distinct signals. For a trouble signal you call out the alarm maintenance technician. For a tamper signal you dispatch security and in some cases notify the on duty Fire inspector or deputy fire marshal. Remote Stations such as Fire Department Communications offices are particularly allergic to receiving and handling any form of trouble signal but may require that a valve tamper be signaled to them. Off premise proprietary stations need to know whom to notify. Central Stations will of course accept any signal you pay them to handle but the service provided must be acceptable to the AHJ. If your talking about a local only system then whoever is responding to the signals can sort that out.

I have worked in my youth for several fire departments as a dispatcher and none of them would want to receive a signal that did not differentiate between alarm system breakdown and valve tampering. In such a case the trouble signal would not be forwarded by a central or proprietary station. Trouble signals would not have been acceptable for connection to the fire departments remote station receiving apparatus accept as discreet signals and, in the case of discreet signals, trouble signals would be received only by permission as trouble and normal with no signal action taken other then a check that the responsible had established a fire watch.

The dual resister arrangement that the OP described would provide a distinct signal that could be handled under any arrangement of off premise receiving. Using a tamper switch to open the supervision would bring on the signal processing problems I have laid out. As I already said in a local only system it would be perfectly acceptable and if neither the trouble or the tamper signal has to reach the fire department then a combined signal would work for off premise monitoring accept to a UL listed Central Station.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

[This message has been edited by tdhorne (edited 08-08-2006).]

Tom all I can say is it's a big country with many ways of doing things.

In the 80s I installed numerous non-addressable fire alarm system and each one that had associated sprinkler systems was wired as Roger described.

They where only two types of signals.

Alarm

Trouble

Only alarm would be sent out to the FD via a telegraph type master box.

Any trouble be it the tampers or other troubles might or might not be monitored by a central station but all troubles would sound at the panel and annunciator.

Some FDs required we disable the trouble silence option and / or zone disable switches.

The correct wiring required a dedicated zone for each flow switch, that zone would also be the tamper switch for valves associated with that flow.

Also even more important was that the zone went from panel to flow and than end with as many tampers as needed.

As long as it was wired with flows first the position of the tampers would not effect an alarm signal from a flow to the panel.

Now we use addressable panels with Alarm, Trouble and Supervisor capability's.

Generally each flow and tamper gets it's own addressable monitor module and we program flows for alarm, tampers for supervisory.

However I have had a FD make me abandon the supervisory module and wire the flow and tamper together old style. (He said I did not know how to wire fire alarm systems.)

BTW this wiring scheme as has been mentioned would be shown right in the panels installation instruction book.

Hey,
Ok Its not a old panel its brand new.(Edwards, G.E. ownes them now)It is programed to use standard contact id. Waterflow/supervisory zones are programed to send send A DISTINCT signal for 4 conditions.1 trouble,2 tamper,3 alarm,4ground fault.Any reciever will clearly reconize these codes. The tamper or valve does not send trouble it sends supervision.Supervision does not stop or effect alarm or flow.(I always wonder about that 1 how is the flow gona go if the valve is closed???) If you turn the valve 1/2 turn it sends supervision. If water flows the alarm goes off.If someone cuts the wire or breakes the loop trouble goes If there is a short you get ground fault. You can program water retard and alarm verifacation.You can't do a huge bld. with this system.I have found that all those pivs or moduals get$$$$$. Also the bld. maint. guys like it because they are always moveing smokes pulls and a/v's around and they don't have to keep track of addresses or reprogram anything. All they have to do is know the zones. I yust set it up simple for them. you know zone 1 flow tamper 1st floor,zone 2 flow tamper 2nd floor,zone 3 smokes and pulls 1st floor west,and so on. All the a/v's are programmed common, they are separate NAC circuits. Now just my opinion and ive put in alot of systems "alot of these addressable systems installed in small to medium blds. are alot of unnessary bells and whistles and$$$" I have also been to alot of fire jobs and if there is 20 offices on the 3rd floor the fire dept dosent really care exactly which office the smoke went off in because they check every one anyway and if thers enough smoke to set off a detecor its not hard to find as long as you lead them to the correct area.