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Posted By: ShockMe77 Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/28/06 09:56 PM
I'm working in a new single-family dwelling and in the attic is a level above the attic (without a staircase), and on this level is an accesible attic ventilation fan. Would a lighting outlet be required for this location per NEC?
My answer is "Maybe"
It would need illumination in the attic with a switch located at the entrance to that attic space if that is where you would be servicing it. NEC 210.70(A)(3)
I see a lot of attic fans that are meant to be serviced from the roof side of the attic. For that you are reqiored to wear a miners cap w/lamp. [Linked Image]
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 01:01 AM
I say "not required." As I see it "servicing" means regular, routine maintenance.... and not the possibility that someday it might break.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 02:15 PM
Shock:
I tend to lean towards George's opinion.
As you said 'new house', and someone may define the attic fan as mechanical equip, it may be 'required'. Also for consideration for a decision/opinion would be....can this 'space' be defined as "storage".....
that said, you may want to install a light, and save all the debate.

John
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 06:08 PM
John:

I totally agree that a light should be installed. A pullchain or whatever. But my boss is too cheap to "giveaway" even a pullchain. It's as if he'd rather argue with the inspector about it then just doing it. If I were an AHJ I would expect to see one in this particular case. Thanks for the insight.
Posted By: iwire Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 09:17 PM
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But my boss is too cheap to "giveaway" even a pullchain.

When and if you own a company you can giveaway anything you want.

Until than you can do what the boos says or find a new place to work.

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It's as if he'd rather argue with the inspector about it then just doing it.

It's his company to make that decision.

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If I were an AHJ I would expect to see one in this particular case.

If the unit is designed to be serviced from the roof than IMO you would be out of line.

JMO, Bob
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 11:37 PM
The t-stat and electrical connections are all made inside the house in the attic. And I understand everything about this being "his business" and all that. However, this is July and it is hot. When the time comes for inspection it'll be even hotter. So guess who'll have to go up into that steaming hot attic to install a light?
Posted By: iwire Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/29/06 11:48 PM
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So guess who'll have to go up into that steaming hot attic to install a light?

LOL

Not him? [Linked Image]
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 07/30/06 12:14 AM
Me!

Besides, this guy I'm working for now seems to be a total jacka$$. It really is unbelievable how this guy gets by, A month ago on the job, he had me and a helper remove standard receptacles in a kitchen (non-countertop) and replace them with GFCIs. I did it anyway then so showed him in the Code later that I did not have to do it. This contractor is a total hack and the only reason why I'm still with him is the fact that the shop is less than 3 miles from my house. On the first day of working for this guy he handed me a 15 amp single receptacle and told me to wire it up to a 20 amp microwave line. That should give you some sort of idea of who I'm working for these days.
Posted By: Steve T Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/04/06 03:17 AM
ShockMe,

Did you get paid for installing those GFCI's?

I used to have guys work for me that complained about doing some things. Unless it is not to code and you feel a moral and ethical obligation not to do the work, if your boss asks you to carry a ladder back and forth across the job all day, do it and don't ask questions.
If the boss wants financial analysis, he'll ask for it. Most bosses won't ask a worker to be involved with the money. If he goes broke because you are wasting time, he's going to go broke sooner or later anyways.

If someone paid me to install GFCI's for every receptacle in the house, I'd be glad to be working, and happy knowing I have gone above the minimum requirement of the code.
As long as the check clears.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/04/06 02:16 PM
It is one thing to seek explanations for something, and another to have a chip on your shoulder. One of the things that really irks me is the "you instinctively know better than all the idiots out there" mindset that is taught in so many schools.

Knowing without learning? I don't think so.

There is a reason apprenticeships take years; it really does take that long to learn just the basics of a trade.
Apart from 'book learning,' there is the mater of judgement. An electrician is paid for his judgement. There is also the mattter of perspective- looking at something in terms of the whole job.

I hear criticisms of not meeting code, and criticisms of exceeding code. If you can't have faith in your teacher- it's time for a new teacher.

Are all of us less than perfect? Sure we are. We goof, we overlook things, we take short-cuts... but most of all, we try to play the best game we can with the less-than-perfect hand we've been dealt.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/04/06 11:52 PM
Reno:

BRAVO, well thought out, and well said!!!!

Shock:

Ever think about 'your boss' dropping by this public forum???
I'm not being a wise guy, but....ya never know who reads; be it on the PC, or in the mens room, or porta-potti.

John
Posted By: ShockMe77 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/05/06 03:13 PM
Is it up to code to attach a coach lamp fixture bar directly to a concrete wall?

Is it ok to add an additional receptacle from the dedicated 20 amp line for a laundry receptacle in the same room?

Is it ok to not install a light and GFCI receptacle for 7.5 ton rooftop A/C condensor?

Is it ok to ignore manufacturers specs for a kitchen hood fan/ light that requires an individual 20 amp branch circuit and feed it from the microwave oven circuit?

These are all things I have done for this contractor. And it burns me up that I have taken the time to become a better electrician by going to school, visiting this forum on a daily basis, and reading book after book about electrical theory, and then told to do things the ****** up way. And then to top it off you folks side with him. I am not new at this. I've been at it for over 15 years. I don't claim to know everything but I do know right from wrong.
Posted By: iwire Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/05/06 06:00 PM
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Is it up to code to attach a coach lamp fixture bar directly to a concrete wall?

No.

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Is it ok to add an additional receptacle from the dedicated 20 amp line for a laundry receptacle in the same room?

Yes.

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Is it ok to not install a light and GFCI receptacle for 7.5 ton rooftop A/C condensor?

The NEC requires a receptacle outlet withing 25' and on the same level as the unit.

The NEC does not require a light for a RTU.

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Is it ok to ignore manufacturers specs for a kitchen hood fan/ light that requires an individual 20 amp branch circuit and feed it from the microwave oven circuit?

I doubt that any hood fan /light actually requires a 20 amp individual branch circuit.

But you have missed the point.

The point is you are responsible for what you do.

If this person continually asks you to perform work that you feel is wrong than it is up to you to either quit or stay and do whats asked of you.

How they run their business is none of your business.

Good luck, no one is giving you a hard time for wanting to do nice work and no one is siding with your boss.
Posted By: Larry Fine Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 08/13/06 05:28 AM
Either stay and stop complaining, or leave and stop complaining.
Posted By: tajoch Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/20/06 01:40 AM
As was stated above:
You are responsible for the work you do.
If your boss requires you to do Work that you feel is illegal, immoral, or otherwise against your better judgement, then you should be looking for another employer.
Posted By: HLCbuild Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/20/06 01:51 AM
Back to the topic...I've worked on many roof fans and they are designed to be disconnected from inside the attic. The bolts that hold the dome on has nuts on the inside that you hold from the attic side. And after the dome is removed, I'm not putting my hand thru the blades to disconnect the electric from the roof side. So my vote is for an attic light and a switch.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/20/06 03:19 AM
Then you are installing one of those dome fans you put the blade on after you wire it. I understand getting the blade off 20 years later may be tougher.
Posted By: e57 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/22/06 09:05 AM
Reach through fan to disconnect????? Never seen one of those....
Posted By: earlydean Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/22/06 07:07 PM
Besides, the residential and mechanical codes require a light in attic spaces with an appliance anyway.
Posted By: HLCbuild Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/23/06 08:22 PM
Perhaps my response was not clear. I was responding to George Little's statement that he has seen many attic fans that were designed to be serviced from the roof. The only ones that I'm familiar with that can be serviced from the roof still require you to disconnect the wiring from the attic before you pull the fan motor out of the housing. Perhaps George is looking at another type of fan than I'm used to seeing. That was my point about not wanting to reach thru the fan from the roof side...
Posted By: Jps1006 Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/23/06 11:53 PM
I don't know guys, the boss sounds like an idiot to me. Steve, if I was hired as an electrician and told to walk back and forth all day with a ladder, I'd ask questions. One of the reasons I work for myself is that I don't trust someone else to give me an evoirnment for my potential to be challenged and for it to grow. I never worked for anyone who could utilize me fully, and therefore I was never paid what I was worth. That would be my concern with working for someone I didn't respect or didn't want to model. You can't become your best under someone who is less than what you want to be. You can make the best of the situation, sure, but under a better boss and/or company, you could become even better.

I don't agree you should be happy to even be working. Thankful to have job, maybe, but if you dislike who you are working for and can't find a better situation, it sounds like you should be more miserable, with a hint of desparation, than happy.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Does an attic fan need illumination? - 09/24/06 02:59 AM
I had one of these mushroom fans in my garage roof when I moved here and I couldn't figure out how it got there since the attic had no access. It was bad and I disconnected the feed in the garage door opener box and abandoned it in place. I finally turned up the installation book in some stuff in the shed. It said you cut the hole, lace the flashing under the shingles, set the box and wire it, then install the motor, then install the blades and the dome cover.
It appears he just shoved the Romex through the garage door opener box in the ceiling and grabbed it through the hole.
I disassembled it in reverse order and threw it away when I was putting a new roof on.
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