I'm installing a new 125A distribution panel as a branch circuit off the main panel in a residence. I bought a 200A Siemens panel at the big box that had the ground bar and was supposedly configured for this, but the main breaker they carry for this panel (4x breakers wide, oriented so you push down on the yoke to turn off.) doesn't fit! Which is to say, it fits the panel, the bolts line up, plenty of clearance, etc, but the punchout on the cover is in the wrong spot. Searching for it online, the part# only seems to return more of the same. Siemens website lists the part for $477, but even though I've already got several circuits run, I'd replace the panel before I wasted that kind of money.

Is it acceptable by NEC to just take a grinder to the cover and put a cutout where it needs to be? What's the proper way of closing up the "wrong" cutout? It will end up being an L shaped hole on one corner of the new cutout. Thanks!

The only person that can answer that question is the inspector if they are willing to approve it.

I would not do this and I would get my money back from the big box.

You might want to buy your panels from an electrical supply house but that is just a thought.

As this is a sub panel, have you considered protecting it only at the service and making it a main lug only ? Just an idea.
Alan--
Do what's easy, it may be right.

[This message has been edited by Alan Nadon (edited 07-19-2006).]

The big box stores do have their drawbacks....

Call the manufacturer. He should have a rep in your area as well. I an sure they have another cover that will fit just right.

Worst case: You got the wrong panel, are trying to do something the mfr doesn't want you to do, and you will have to replace both panel and cover.

[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 07-22-2006).]

Modifications to the cover, such as you described would get you a red sticker from me as AHJ.

From your description, you got something wrong at the "Big Box".

As Alan 'suggested', MLO sub, OCP in the main panel, & it's done.

I'm curious what Siemen's wants $ 477 for??

John

I do mostly design of emergency power of large facilities and have only been doing that for 8 months; did electronics work before that- I'm learning quickly, but there are engineering issues, and there are nuts and bolts issues, and I'm really out of my element on this one
http://www.sea.siemens.com/speedfax05/05%20Speedfax/05Speedfax_01/01_27.pdf

It's a 200A "Ultimate Load Center", which will be a 125A branch circuit off a 200A main panel. It will be located in the addition, about 40' from the main panel. Is MLO legal? I'd assumed I needed a local disconnect, but that might be a MIL-SPEC requirement specifically for servicible electronic equipment, now that I think about it... If MLO is OK, shoot, I'll just do that! Where in NEC would the relavant code be, I'm having trouble fining it? If MLO isn't legal in this case, I'll call siemens and see what I can do. It looks like the plate is replaceable, so maybe I can just get the right one for not a whole lot of money.

MBK125A is the breaker I wanted, and it's specifically stated on the label on the inside of the door that it's the right breaker. The one I bought at the big box for $50, the only main breaker for these panels they sell (MBK200) does fit on the bus, it just doesn't fit the panel front. Siemens has the exact same breaker listed for $473 in their catalog. I really intend to use it soley as a disconnect, and use a 125A breaker in the main panel as the overcurrent protection

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-19-2006).]

Ah, found it, was looking in the wrong section- 408.36(A) only requires that it be protected on the supply side. The only requirements I've found in NEC for local disconnects (6-hand movement rule) are for service entrances to buildings. IRC 2003 is completely silent on the matter. I'm just going to wire this up MLO, that makes it nice and easy!

BTW, I can't find anything in article 408 prohibiting cutting a new hole. And this seems to indicate soldering the L-shaped hole shut would be acceptable:
NEC 2005 408.7 Unused Openings. Unused openings for circuit breakers and switches shall be closed using identified closures, or other approved means that provide protection substantially equivalent to the wall of the enclosure.

That's the ticket right there... "identified" It needs to be identified by the manufacturer for that purpose. Next is the "other approved means"; using a hand built plate approved by the manufacturer (not likely), approved by testing lab - UL/ETL ($$$$$$), or approved by the AHJ (possible, but varies by inspector & locale).

Don't cut up the cover.
MLO is the answer.
Do what's easy. It is right.
Alan--

What kind of customers do you work for?

Are you a licensed electrician?

I can not imagine trying to charge money for a cut and soldered up cover on a new installation.

If they wanted it cobbled together they could have done the work themselves.

Alan gave you great advice you should take it.

JMO, Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-20-2006).]

Bob:
A little HUTC??

I think we all basically said the same thing above. I used verbal reserve, as I was leaning toward the common term for a 'meat cutter'.

As I said above, a red sticker. That being IF there was a permit. If not, definite $2000
fine for 'no permit' and a call to the BOE.

John

Alan had good advice, that's why I posted back this morning saying I was going to go MLO! I just happened to find a relavant bit of code to my original question in the process, and figured I'd post it.

And no, I'm not a licensed electrician, I'm an electrical engineer. As I'm fond of saying, engineers know WHAT to do, electricians know HOW to do it. As such, I can spend all day ironing out harmonics, selecting derated transformers and calculating positive/negative/zero sequence fault analysis, but I'm only legally able to *do* actual work on my own house- as usual, I'm biting off more than I can chew (framing, roofing, plumbing hvac, the works) but that's how you learn! I certainly wouldn't try to sell myself off as an electrician; my own house is one thing, maybe quietly help a neighbor with something minor, but I'd never take a job to wire up new construction or anything like that. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be an ivory tower EE who won't get his hands dirty That's partly why I'm doing this work myself, and mostly why I read this forum- gotta learn somehow, and if I do have a question on HOW to do something, I know this is a great place to ask so I don't end up doing something stupid

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-20-2006).]

Steve,


LOL!

Been in the Industry (Full Time) since 1983.
Began "Doing Both Sides" of the Trade in 1988, AKA: Working in the Field + Electrical Engineering... along with several other "sides"
(Proj. Management, Consultant, LAN & Security Systems Design, Gen. Contractor Rep. / Superintendent, Broom Pusher, etc.)

Have the same concept about the "Ivory Tower Only" thoughts - only it looks like I may be finding myself in the Office 95% of the time, instead of the "50%/50%" I have been used to doing.


ECN is a GREAT Forum!!!
Lots of knowledgeable Members, with very minimal "Gun Fire" (flames).

The "Regulars" in the NEC & other Code issues area, are very serious about compliance to all relevant Codes and NRTL Listings. This tends to draw some fire at times, along with replies which may appear as flames.

Unless a person comes in here and starts throwing fire around - acting like a complete moron; therefore removing any and all doubt from anyone's mind that the person, is indeed, an idiot; then all questions are "Helpfully Answered".

As an EE, you may be familiar to the flaming techniques, which are very common (and outright rude at times), in unmoderated, open public bulletin boards / forums - such as "alt . electrical . engineering" for example.
In some of those forums, the "Default Reaction" to many posted questions, is to classify them as "Stupid Questions".
In almost every case, the real problems were "Stupid Replies" from arrogant EEs with way too much time on their hands, "Ivory Towers Syndrome", and far too narrow mindedness!

Saw a flame war thread run over 100 posts, over a question regarding Tesla and a Low Power Generator!
Some of the insults thrown back at other EEs were funny (like extremely long worded expressions of how the "other EE" should take his/her Meds daily, and the occasional "On This Planet Things Work This Way, Not Sure Of How Things Work On Your Planet" replies), but far too many of them went so far overboard, flaming the original poster, it was just sickening!

That's one of the main reasons I frequent ECN - none of that type of Garbage is tolerated!
(actually, the highest ranking reasons are knowledge base + integrity of Members, and the wide range of experiences + topics of discussion with Members).

This concludes today's Soapbox Speech; You may now resume normally scheduled tasks!


Scott35

and:


Very well said, Scott!! I for one have always felt welcome here, (I'm a cinema tech with some electrician experience) and even on the most "flammable" topics (Shared neutrals for example), the debates have always been very opinionated (not in a bad way) yet conducted with tact and mutual respect.

I too have seen some of the flame wars on other sites (one in particular related to the cinema biz) get wayyyy out of hand before the mods even attempt to step in. But not here!!

Back on topic, I have run across a few installations where the panel's deadfront has been modified. The modification has almost always been a piece of heavy guage sheet steel (at least as thick as the deadfront) cut to fit snugly around the breaker opening and securely riveted in place.

To play devil's advocate, and put on an AHJ hat:

Is it to Code?: Most likely not. {But I seem to recall seeing something in my '99 book that addressed this issue specifically...}

Is it unsafe?: Again, most likely not.

Would I use my authority to accept it?: Yes, I would pass it.

But the one thing I would most be concerned about, rather than the modification of the deadfront is:

Is the breaker in question suitable for use in that panel/application? In both trip current rating and AIC capability?

And finally:

What about a situation where the entire deadfront was custom cut and replaced the original? {Again with the premise that it is of at least as heavy guage steel as the original.}

Just goes to show that the NEC isn't perfect, but then again, who or what is?

Slick I have to ask you.

Would you expect to see this on a new installation?

This is the kind of repair that if I was an inspector would surly consider on an obsolete panel but would not consider if a new installation.

The fact that the panel cover had to be modified like this screams that something is not right.

The panel, the breaker, the cover....one or more of these items is not the right part and we should not be looking for a workaround.

No flames, just my professional opinion, Bob

Didn't bite on this earlier, but if the panel had an opening in the wrong spot, wouldn't it suggest that the breaker for a Main apllication was wrong? Or that the equipment wasn't suitable as service equipment? That would be my first guess.....

iwire:

No flame offence taken

Yes, you're right of course, on a NEW panel installation I would also not find such a modification acceptable. So a red sticker it would be.

But on older equipment or a repair of obsolete but still adequately serviceable equipment, I would weigh the overall picture before passing or failing the situation.


Does that mean you might pass such a modification, given the conditions I mentioned in my first post?

This is why I love it here, professionals bringing up all the possible variables and options.

This panel was packaged as a Main Lug panel with Ground Bar, convertable to a Main Breaker panel. Lowes only carries one main breaker, so I assumed it would fit, and it does, sort of. Attached are photos of the panel with the breaker on top- it will fit perfectly over the main lug bolts. And I didn't tear the paper off the breaker, but I'd imagine the main lugs will likewise fit perfectly on the breaker. As you can tell from the dead front, though, it's not going to fit...

<IMG SRC=\"http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3549/img6145qq0.th.jpg\"> <IMG SRC=\"http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1056/img6146nx2.th.jpg\"> <IMG SRC=\"http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8866/img6147pn9.th.jpg\">

To reiterate, it's moot, I'm going to return the breaker and connect it MLO, but it's still an interesting conundrum!

If any of ya'll spot any other violations in there, feel free to point them out now while it's easy to fix I know I need to stick another 2x4 within 12" of the top of the box yet to secure the NM, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-23-2006).]

Steve:
Something's not right here.........
200 amp rated panel? Using as a sub-panel; OK!....with 125 amp feeder?? (as you said)
Why the 200 amp "main"????

Without reading the label on the Siemens panel you installed, and based on the cover in the photos......Something's not right!!

Either:
You have wrong 'Main', that you don't need.
You have wrong cover.
You have wrong panel.
"MLO" panel or "convertable" panels usually DO NOT come with the KO out for the 'Main'

As stated above by others, for a repair type job, a butchered cover MAY be acceptable, but on a 'NEW' panel install, NOT Acceptable.

John

You have the wrong breaker! The breaker you purchased (MBK200) is for replacement use in older loadcenters. The MBK200A is a completely different design. Look at the breaker picture just below the breaker you currently have in the link you posted. It’s marked EQ869X.

Modifying the cover would be the least of your problems trying to use this breaker. How would you connect the incoming feeder conductors? The breaker you have is designed for bussed connections on the line and load side.

Curt

Yeah that is a problem.

Steve this is something an electrician knows.

Steve....really man....you in over your head, higher an electrician.

Bob

Again, I'm not going to put any breaker in the panel. At this point, the discussion is acadamic...
I agree, something is wrong.

Re: the 200A panel. I wanted space in the panel for 20 circuits. The 200A panel had ample space for all the circuits I wanted to add, but the 125A panels would have had every single slot used (and was unrated for stacked breakers), which is unsat as far as I'm concerned. In addition, the 200A panel was cheaper! As there is no code forbidding an overrated panel, the choice was obvious. I would have preferred to give it a dedicated 200A service, but I only have 200A service to the house, and the main loads are split about evenly between the panels, and NEC requires a 100A service (or would if this was a service and not just a branch circuit). So, I plan for 25% more, and wire it up as a 125A, pull #2 90C conductors, and save some money and effort. Voltage drop difference between #2 and #1 is negligible. (NEC only requires a 200A service to this house, btw, I'm not overloading the main.)

As to the 200A main, the Siemens panel label lists MBK125A, MBK150A and MBK200A as the main breakers. I have not seen MBK125A anywhere for sale, and the photos of the MBK150A and MBK200A online on various vendor sites are described as "4-breaker" and one site even shows a photograph of a breaker identical to the one I'm using. Siemens' website describes the MBK200 as "reversed handle" implying it's intended to be installed upside-down, but then has a photo of a completely different form factor. For $477.

Lowes carries MBK200 for $57. Cheapest I've seen anything else listed was a used MBK150A online for $126. Siemen's website lists them for $477. So, screw that, I bought the MBK200 at lowes- I figured I could always return it. It wasn't until I got it home that I realized it didn't match the cutout.

The OCP for this circuit is a 125A breaker in the feeder panel- this breaker is not protecting a tap conductor, so the 200A main would have simply been a local disconnect switch. So, installing a 200A rated "switch" should be acceptable. That the switch is designed to provide 200A OCP would be irrelavant in this use.

This is not a bus-fed breaker. For starters, why would lowes be selling a bus fed breaker? Also, the instructions on the breaker are to remove the lugs from the panel and install them on the breaker. I haven't torn the sticker off the back (I want to return the breaker) but the instructions indicate there are screw terminals there where the lugs removed from the panel would bolt on, and the breaker would bolt to where the lugs were. Everything about the breaker appears to fit perfectly in this panel except the dead front.

Edit: Photo of the MBK200 installed in a panel on this pdf, showing terminal lugs on top: http://automation.usa.siemens.com/SpecGuide/Sections/Sec19.pdf

------
iwire, c'mon! I'd expect you guys to say something like that about making the connection to the existing panel, but for this stuff? I mean, there is definately a level of difficulty and professional knowledge required, but I'm not a laymen! I just haven't been doing this long enough to have memorized the relevant codes like y'all have and constantly have to work to make sure I'm doing it right. At least here I have the luxury of knowing a city inspector will be coming up behind me and making sure I won't burn my house down. No such luxury on my day job, so I'm very concientious not only of code, but also good engineering practice and the myraid "what ifs" which include terrorist attacks and possibly outright bombings by other major powers... Usually I don't have to get into this degree of detail, though, most of the time, I just tell them I want a 150A breaker and let the contractor worry about ordering the right one and the necessary hardware And THEN tell them it's wrong when I come and inspect the site, heh.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-23-2006).]

Whats with the piece of black wire between the neutral bars?? and why a GE breaker in siemans panel(the 30 amp looks like a GE to me)

Walrus:
The 'black wire' is the factory jumper to connect the two neutral bars in this panel. It can be removed (field) to 'create' one neutral and one ground bar.

As to the GE CB, yes, it's a GE in all it's glory. IT MAY be 'approved'; I'm not sure one way or the other, as I said I'm not a Siemens Resi maven

Steve:
The point I am making is what I said, something is not right. You are aware of it. That's good. You seem to be on the right track.

That said, I did not imply there was anything wrong with the larger panel, circuit capacity, nor buss amperage rating. My only comment was that you should NOT cut the panel cover, but seek the proper materials.

I'm not a lover of shopping at any 'big box' store, again this is a personal opinion. The local suppliers deserve support from EC's
Again, my opinion. I have used big boxes in dire need of something, and have witnessed gross mis-information. That's another thread.

John

Yeah, big box being the big box, they didn't have enough 30A or 20A in stock and I ended up short. I had that GE sitting around- figured I'd ask the inspector about it during the rough-in inspection. I couldn't find the form factor printed on it to verify, but it looks to be compatible with the panel, so I don't see that it would be an issue.

The inspectors here follow the "my code" as opposed to any particular code book, so it's always a crap-shoot...

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-23-2006).]

Steve,
G.E. breaker in Siemens panel.
Read the labeling on the panel cover. It will tell you what breakers are accepable for installation in the panel. NEC 110.3(B) manufacturers instructions applies.
Inspectors are not perfect. We don't / can't catch all the errors that an installer can make. You have to do what is right.
I have seen panels fail when breakers that "fit" failed to make good contact on the bus and burned the back of the panel out. One in as little as six months from time of installation.
Alan--

To be honest, I was thinking the same thing. It fits, but doesn't seem to fit quite right. Not worth the risk of a fire for an $8 breaker.

Since no one else has asked...I will...How's that thumb feeling? (img6147pn9.jpg)

LOL..

I figured the black wire on the neutral bar was a factory piece, which justified my first thought, cheesy

Walrus:
Believe it or not, that's one of the "better" designs for the neutral/ground bar jumper.

UL approved, listed/labeled, etc.

John

When I first saw this thread I thought I knew what was going on. I had a Siemens panel with the interior mounted too low a couple of years ago. I see from the photos thias isn't the case. Siemens changed the mains a couple of years ago. It is a completely different set-up as far as the 200A main is concerned. I have a shelf full of the "new" 200A mains I removed from MB loadcenters when I needed a 40ct ML and my rebate made the MB cheaper.I am the only place in my area that stocks the new 200A ITE MB. GE Powerline Gold panels still use the 4 pole 200A main design. GE/Siemens may look the same but I don't like to mix and match CBs in a loadcenter. I have seen my share of Bryant type loadcenters with Challenger, Westinghouse, Bryant, General Switch, GE, Sylvania, Murray and Siemens CBs all mixed in. The true mark of a long succession of handymen.

LOL Celtic! I had a feeling someone would ask about that Actually, it's about 2 months old now and the pain and swelling has long since gone, leaving just a nasty black clot under my nail that's just going to have to grow out, I guess... But if that's the worst injury I got while framing up an entire 2000 square foot addition by myself, I know I should be estatic!

Regarding the neutral jumper, yes, it's factory installed and actually very nice to have dual neutral bars- I can route both the hot and neutral together in the panel and terminate them right beside each other. (Well, more or less, as the neutral bar is shorter than the bus bars). Will also make the AFCIs very clean! I don't like the position of it, I'm going to loosen the bolts and reposition it so it has more clearance off the bus bars- I wouldn't want that insulation to degrade over the years.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 07-24-2006).]

Better designs on the jumper?? I like GEs flat bar alot better but thats what I'm used to so...

Take apart the panel that you have installed. Get a connector to fit the PVC coming in the top of the panel. Get a panel that is at least as tall as the siemens you are taking out, you will need this because you have already stripped wires coming from the top and bottom. Main lug or main breaker really dosen’t matter, the overcurrent protection is being provided by the 125A in your main panel, get whatever is cheaper. Make sure the panel you get has long busbars on each side (a full size GE powermark gold mod 6 would be good I think) so your already cut wires will reach. Get some plastic romex connectors, they are easier to work with. Make sure you remove the jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar, this will make your panel a subpanel. Get some #10 sheetmetal screws, as drywall screws or deck screws aren’t acceptable for mounting a panel where I come from, maybe its ok for you. I would get some 1/0 SER Aluminum to feed that panel but you could use PVC with THHN, I think SER is easier and cheaper. Make sure you secure those homeruns within 12 inches of the panel. If you keep them to the side you could use plastic cable stackers (depending on how many homeruns you have) or you might want to turn a 2x4 sideways and mount it between the two studs to staple to. I would stay away from siemens, replacement breakers are always easier to find for GE or Cutler Hammer or Square D.

Those are some things that you would only know from doing it, but I have to ask as an EE, don’t you spec out what panels to use on jobs. Most sets of prints I see have panel schedules with type of panel (MLO or Main Breaker) listed.

crl22191, this was for my own house; I typically DO specify switchboards at work, but I work only large industrial sites for electronic equipment on military bases (smallest I'm usually involved in is 800A) and we have some unique requirements- one of which is that servicible equipment MUST have a local means of disconnect for safety- which is why I purchased this panel with the intention of putting in a main breaker as a local disconnect. As it turns out, I didn't really need it though, and I installed the panel MLO. I used #1 CU for the feeder, btw- Murray panel on the other end was only rated for 75C. I plugged the MB holes I'd already punched out and didn't need with plastic plugs listed for that purpose.

Where in code is the mounting method for the panel specified? The instructions on this panel made no mention of the listed fasteners or even what holes were to be used, so I just used what was on-hand and logical. It's easy enough to drive in sheet metal screws into the backing 2x4s if those are required vice deck screws.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 08-31-2006).]

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 08-31-2006).]

Steve:
Ahh, this thread is back.........
As to 'mounting' any panel, I am not aware of any NEC prohibition against sheetrock screws, or deck screws.

That said, using a bugle head type screw thru a 'factory' hole with very minimal 'contact', or the possibility of 'pull thru' would result in the panel not being securly fastened.

Pan head screws solve that issue, if it arises.

Others may debate the above, but that is my opinion.

John

I like 1 ¼" #12 screws with the hex head and a washer. Then that puppy ain't going anywhere unless you want it to. The hex makes the driver really work, even if they get old and rusty some day.
The big red masonry anchors work if it is against block or concrete with the same screw.