More AFCIs - ECN Electrical Forums

I've heard a vicious rumor that the 2008 NEC is going to expand the number of locations that AFCI will be required in residential work.
Is this just an evil rumor or is this "the beginning of the end" for shared neutrals?

Surely everyone by now knows that there are two pole AFCI breakers, just as there are two pole GFCI breakers!

The proposal was accepted, they are just haggling about the exceptions

No, earlydean, I didn't know that. The last I heard, the two-pole AFCI existed only in some manufacturers' fantasy, and had not yet made it into the supply chain.

The AFCI issue is likely to become even more contentious than it has been so far, as differing technologies, and codes, conflict.

Buy APC stock. There is going to be a surge in the UPS business.

Note that this is only the ROP, I expect that there will be a lot of comments and the ROP could be reversed in the ROC.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 04-28-2006).]

The other one that HAS to get amended is the universal requirement for tamper proof receptacles in dwellings.
That would add a few buck to a house wouldn't it. No more 43 cent receptacles, they would be more like $8 a pop.

Quote

Is this just an evil rumor or is this "the beginning of the end" for shared neutrals?

I for one would be very happy if shared neutrals died a fast and painful death!! [Linked Image]

However, this whole AFCI requirement is a huge joke. You have devices that are still prone to nuisance trips, which invite Joe Homeowner to take a trip (pun intended) to the big box and get a bigger breaker to put in the panel (and we've all seen that too many idiots know just enough to change a breaker) because JH isn't bright enough to know why the breaker keeps tripping.

GFCI's, having been throughly developed are however a great idea. Yeah, I know they have different goals, but ...

Oh, yeah, that reminds me..AFCI's also have GFI circuits too, right? Then how do you know WHY it tripped? As some of you have already posted, AFCI problems are a real bear to troubleshoot!!

Quote

The other one that HAS to get amended is the universal requirement for tamper proof receptacles in dwellings.

Don't even say that as a joke!! [Linked Image]

You know someone will get the bright idea to submit that!! [Linked Image]

I haven't purchased a two-pole AFCI yet, but I recall handling one at a trade show. The homes I have wired only required one each, and I don't usually use multiwire branch circuits for residential anyway.
Haven't they started selling them yet?

Quote

I for one would be very happy if shared neutrals died a fast and painful death!!

No way, never. [Linked Image]

12/4 Cable and I are to good friends for us to part company.

Besides it makes no sense electrically to do away with MWBCs.

Once the branch circuits reach the panel it is common neutral all the way back to the source. The neutral bar is no better or worse than a wire nut. There is nothing in an electrical panel that makes a common neutral 'bad' on the load side and 'good' on the line side.

About all we can say is possible harmonic loads on the neutral but that will happen to the feeder neutral as well. [Linked Image]

Running all two wire circuits is wasteful of resources and give us greater voltage drop issues.

Bob

The tamper proof receptacle proposal was reported on the IAEI web site as accepted. Lets see how well it does in the comment stage.

Quote

NEMA Proposal 18-40 Section 406.11(New)
Panel Action: Accept Vote: 10-1-1

Commentary: NEMA proposal 18-40 would require the use of tamper resistant receptacles throughout dwellings. The overwhelming consensus was to accept this proposal, but a considerable amount of time was spent debating whether the requirement for tamper resistant receptacles should be limited to only those that are easily accessible to children. For instance, it was questioned whether the receptacles behind refrigerators, or on walls behind counter tops, should need to comply. Panel members also questioned the ease with which attachment plugs could be inserted into tamper resistant receptacles, resulting in the writing of the following panel statement:

“The panel is concerned about the possible increased insertion force required for our aging population. The panel requests data concerning the amount of force necessary to insert a plug into the shutter and the amount of force necessary to fully insert a plug into a tamper-resistant receptacle”.

The panel finally agreed to accept the proposal without any location restrictions to see what comments were generated during the public review phase. The IAEI representative voted against the proposal. The IEC representative abstained from the voting.

"I for one would be very happy if shared neutrals died a fast and painful death!!"

Surely you are joking. Prohibiting MWBCs would be idiotic.

mxslick,

If you don't like shared neutrals, how do you feel about services and utility wiring? [Linked Image]

Peter

C-H /eaton has been selling a 2-pole with 2 singles of either 15/15, 20/20 or 15/20 for about 2 years or more. And they happen to work very well for remodels.

On the 2 wire circuit idea, I have to agree, it is a waste. There is no more danger, or loss in circuit quality in them than any other circuit properly wired. And with copper prices doing the hoochie choochie, it makes more sense. Environmentaly, they say that 50% of the earths copper is mined out now, and that in the very near future they will have to resort to Trash mining! (For that and other resources...) Kind of retro-active recycling....

Gentlemen:

To keep this on topic, please see this thread:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002445.html
edited to add: ...And this one:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002480.html

Quote

I for one would be very happy if shared neutrals died a fast and painful death!!

I rest my case. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 05-01-2006).]

Rest you case?

You have not said anything. [Linked Image]

I know you are both knowledgeable and professional. [Linked Image]

But you have not proven anything.

How is a multiwire branch circuit different from a feeder or service?

Bob

As far as the AFCI debate is concerned... it has been my observation that many places have either failed to adopt any AFCI requirements, or have added exceptions.

In the field, I am finding many new homes with only receptacles on the AFCI's, and not the lights (as required by both NEC and local code).

The NEC, or any code, is of value only as far as it is respected. Make enough bad calls, and respect goes away. It seems that the AFCI mania has greatly undermined the respect we have for the NEC.

Reno, I agree....
AFCI's have not proven themselves to me yet. IMO, or even IMPO they are a great way for breaker makers to make some more mulla.

IMO, they are an infant product at this point, and far from perfect. Time will only tell, but I do not see the need, or objective of requiring them in some, or any rooms.

I've lived through and possibly because of - Spark iginition on furnaces, GFCI protection evolution, thermal protection of recessed fixtures, mandatory smoke alarm protection and now the evolution of AFCI protection. End of story.