If you have a hydro massage tub and the plumbing is all plastic, is the # 8 solid copper wire needed? Is so, where is it going to? What if you have a brass water spout flowing water into the tub? Any thoughts?

It is needed incase the moter has a short and the casing becomes hot without tripping the breaker. There should be a lug on the side of the motor itself to attach to and then, depending on your jurisdiction, to the cold water and/or the EGC.

If I read 680.62(B) or 680.26(B)(3) it sure sounds like the spout should be bonded. I suppose you have to have the plumber stub it out far enough in the back in metal for a clamp if there is no lug.

add
680.43(D)(4)ex gives a little different spin but since the spout is above the water line it is more likely to become energized.

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 02-18-2006).]

Greg- Need you to get the Windex out for them thar glasses. Look at 680.74 for HMBT's (I don't catch Greg very often)

I need a little spanking now and then.

I guess a spout isn't a system?

Harold no need for any bonding there.
Gene you are confusing equipment grounding and bonding.

I was going to make the same comment.
The lug on the motor has NOTHING to do with grounding.

I had a home inspector write up a hydromassage tub saying it was not bonded. The tub was inside and the motor was outside. All the plumbing was plastic including the drain. The only two metal objects in the motor area were the motor/pump assembly and the junction box. So I bonded these two together. What else was there to do?
Now if the water supply pipes were metal, with the motor outside the building, would you have to bond the piping to the motor even though a person could never contact both at the same time??? These are the house plumbing pipes I am referring to, not the recirculation piping to the pump.

There are some AHJ's around here making the EC run a #8 wire all the way back to the service panel. However if there is a small piece of metal pipe attached to the spout, do you think it should be bonded to the motor? Or is it small enough to let it slide, and not bond it at all?

As George pointed out a HM tub is not a spa and a spout is not a system so you probably don't have to bond it.
On the other hand if a few feet of wire would make you feel better you could.
The AHJ who wants to make the 8ga bond part of grounding system is wrong, at least the way I understand the issue. Our AHJs don't even like to admit grounding current could flow to the pool, and that is exactly what will happen. That huge Ufer, full of water, out there is going to be the most effective electrode on the property.

Mine got bonded back to the panel with a #8 anyway simply because the spa and pool are bonded and the spa heater has an 8ga EGC along with the pool light #12, 4 pumps with their #12s and the incidental bonding of all the electrical that is attached to the screen cage which is part of "the grid".
I don't think you can have too much bonding.

Greg,

You should know me by now, the reason I asked the question is because some AHJ's up here are requiring the EC to run a "Bond" wire all the way back to the electrical panel or sub panel. I agree with you that a bond wire isn't needed at all, the way I read the NEC. I just wanted others opinions on this subject.

The FPN in 680.23(A) says it all
FPN:This section does not require that the 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any electrode.

Article 680 Part VII for hydromassage bathtubs (jacuzzi). In your particular case I would take a #8 and go from the bonding lug on the motor and return it to another bonding lug on the same motor, about an inch or so from the first lug. Cause why not? There ain't nothing else to bond to unless this particular tub is made out of iron and even then the code would not require it. Spa's and hot tubs are in a different part of 680 and have different rules. Lots of inspectors get it all mixed up and so do lots of electricians.

Harold:
Ok, you met the 'guy' requiring a bond back to the panel?? Is he the same 'guy" requiring driven grd rods (2) at spa/hot-tubs (outside). Spa/HT being recirculating non-drained, chemically/ozone treated heat maintained water with/without air injection??

OK; IF there's a bond lug on the pump motor, a bond is required to all metalic piping, supply/drain, etc. If the plumbing is plastic, you have no where to bond. As to the 'spout'.....I would say IF it's 4" square (16 Sq Inches) I would request it to be bonded. NOTE I said REQUEST

Let the debate continue??

John

There is no requirement or need to run the #8 back to the panel.

There is no need or requirement to bond the "spout" regardless of how big or small it is as it is not a "metal piping system" or "grounded metal part in contact with the circulating water".

John, on what would you base your request? When does an inspector have the authority to make requests vs enforcing the code?

680.74

All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 03-09-2006).]

Electricmanscott:

Reference is 680.62 (B). Although it is under the heading VI, and not VII.

As I said "request", not 'require'. I don't have my own 'code', but the '02 NEC, as adopted and 'amended' by the State of NJ.

The debate over part VI, and Part VII has been kicked around for some time by various AHJ's, ad the State.

Scott, you are right, it's not required, as written, hence "request"

John

The code is quite clear on the issue. The code clearly states part VII for hydromassage bathtubs. The code is less stringent for these than hot tubs or pools. Any thing else is a misaplication of the code period.
Now a "request" should be considered, since an unhappy inspector is a costly inspector. However if one requested I run a #8 all the way back to the panel, I will be requesting he leave the property pronto. And next morning I will be "requesting" a more competent individual be sent out to do the inspection. Unless I can change his mind first of course.

You can request anything you want. With that request you better have your checkbook with you to pay for it because it is not coming out of my pocket. If it is not required the story ends there.

As for the tub 680.62 (B) just does not apply to hydromassage tubs.

Parts VI and VII are for two completely different pieces of equipment. Neither applies to tthe other.


Just for curiousity John why would you make the request? It really sounds like "I like it that way" code even though you say it is not.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 03-10-2006).]

OK, I have to 'defend' what I said.....

First, I'm not the #8 back to the panel guy, nor am I the drive the rods guy.

Second; IF an EC/HO made the inquiry that Harold started this thread with, I would offer an explanation as follows:

Bonding the spigot/spout at/for/on/near a whirlpool (Jacuzzi) tub is NOT REQUIRED. OK, but if it's a 'theraputic' tub (patients treatment) it IS REQUIRED; should I bond it on my "Jacuzzi"????

My response will/would be "YES, you can/may, if you want to, but it is NOT required." Questions from EC/HO's similar to "what would you do"??? I would reply "I would bond it; but the NEC does not require that"

I used the word "request" previously, and I have to admit it was a poor choice at the time, instead of the explanation above.

As I said, I don't have my "own code"; I appologize for taking a 'verbal short-cut'.

John

John,

Sorry I disappered but I was busy last week. I am not the AHJ that requested the #8 go back to the panel, nor do I request the ground rods at hot tubs. I still am surprised at how many EC's ask me these questions. they tell me that the AHJ from XYZ town wants the #8 back to the panel. I asked him the same question I asked here. "Where is it in the code book?" Of course they can't find it but the AHJ required it. I reminded them that the AHJ by code has to cite, chapter and verse where it is written in the code book. Too many AHJ's around here tell the EC, "You look it up." or something like that. I always tell them to take the AHJ to the Const. Board of Appeals. However they don't want to take the time off and lose money. So the bad AHJ wins again.

Bad AHJ's always win. Power thing.

They most certainly do not Mike nor should they. The only way they "win" is if we let them.

I had an inspector try to fail an above ground pool because the bonding wire went around and under the top rail of the pool. He said it needed to go around the bottom of the pool and touch the ground so the pool is grounded. He wanted to see me bury it a little bit in the sand around the pool so it had a good ground. In not so many words I told him to go pound that sand.

The reality is I went over and above the bonding requirements for bonding. I could have just connected at one point and been done. I actually encircled the pool and made several connections.

Guys:

THe only way to curtail the "my way" guys is to stand your ground!

As Harold stated, the Board of Appeals. Or, try talking to the Inspector, if not go to the Elec Sub-Code, then the Construction Official. (Chain of Command in NJ)

I can say 'I'm not right all the time'; I'm not "God"; I'm human, I make mistakes & I'm not affraid to admit it.

John

This is starting to drift off subject but,-- Here is the reality. If you confront an inspector in the field, specificially a hard ball type, then you run the risk of "censure" or whatever you want to call it from the rest of the gang in his office. Those guy's all work with each other every day and make friends. If you want to start having trouble all over town all of a sudden, just step on the wrong toes. Of course if you are able to never ever have any code violations at all, then you have nothing to worry about. Because every single last one of the boxes you nail up never are more than 1/8" back from the non combustable surface. Know what I mean Vern?

"This is starting to drift off subject but,-- Here is the reality. If you confront an inspector in the field, specificially a hard ball type, then you run the risk of "censure" or whatever you want to call it from the rest of the gang in his office. Those guy's all work with each other every day and make friends. If you want to start having trouble all over town all of a sudden, just step on the wrong toes. Of course if you are able to never ever have any code violations at all, then you have nothing to worry about. Because every single last one of the boxes you nail up never are more than 1/8" back from the non combustable surface. Know what I mean Vern?"


I wish to whole-heartedly disagree with this statement. I am an electrical inspector, some would say I'm not easy on the folks...but I would never deny a contractor's right to dispute me all the way to my boss...in fact I encourage it. I tell them right out, 'come into the office at the end of the day and we can look this up in the code book, Handbook, etc. to see if I've made a mistake, if you still don't agree with my decision you can speak with my supervisor.' There are no hard fellings on my part or fellow inspectors. That attitude does not play in the part of the country I work in. Increasingly, bldg. departments DEMAND an attitude towards customer service, willingness to listen and work with the public/contractor to get the job done correctly...if you cannot backup your decision with a code section, don't be making the call.

I have made incorrect calls in the field, gone back to the office and checked a code book, another inspector, or my boss and have been wrong; I call the contractor up immediately, admit I was wrong and apologize for the inconvenience. I honestly believe every inspector in our department feels that way.

OK, west coast joins the fray and is in agreement for the EC to 'stand his ground' if the EC is right.

BTW, I had a rough re-inspection Fri; noticed a bare #8 thru studs of 1st floor; went up to look further; OK jacuzzi bond. Motor lug to motor mounting base twice, to h&c piping and down......
"where's it go??" "To the neutral bar in the panel, and then to the grd rod" proudly stated Mr Homeowner. After explaining parallel ground paths; he said 'the other guy (inspector) told me to do it this way'
WRONG.

(Back on track now??)

John

If this is the neutral bar in the service disconnect enclosure where the MBJ lives I don't see a parallel neutral problem. You can parallel all the grounding conductors you like, code wise. You do it every day when you pull a hard ground in a steel raceway. If that gets supported by building steel you grounded it to the electrode again.
There may be eddy currents but no parallel circuit current.
That is the rational for IG.

Greg:
Lacking specifics above, (sorry) he went to the neutral of a sub-panel, then to two rods he drove outside the foundation, opposite side of service entrance w/2 other rods.

John