Does the electrical inspector ask that a "Listed" product be used to seal up the penetrations through the upper and lower plates of a non fire rated building such as a dwelling? What if the contractor uses fiberglass insulation stuffed in around NM cable to stop the flow of air from one floor to the next or in holes drilled horozontally? Would that satisfy the code?

I don't think that is fire rated, it is just an energy code thing.
They use spray foam here.

The fiberglass would be acceptable if it is not a fire-rated floor or ceiling. All you are doing in a non-rated assembly is draft stopping, which can be done with non-conbustable insulation.

Chris

Roger, would you and Bob (Iwire) comment on this subject? I respect your views and am trying to get a cross section of opinions. Thank You. And of course any others who have input by all means contribute.

Around here they require a fire caulk or rock wool. It's not just an energy saving thing.

-Hal

Fire-stop caulk products are "bituminous"*, which means that they expand when heated, which closes penetrations when the cable burns away.

*(Or intuminescent, or whatever the word is)

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 11-10-2005).]

George, first of all thank you for the respect and be assured it is mutual.

If it is a non rated building I wouldn't know of any reason to use a true fire sealant or caulk,.

One problem I have with people using a true fire caulk for sealing a penetration is, that if a manufacturers listed assembly using a particular caulk is not used, then it is nothing more than an expensive draft stop.

IMO, all of the assembly; the sheet rock, concrete, fire resistant plywood, ect... would have to be of some rating for the fire caulk to mean anything, unless there is some tested (listed) assembly where it was used with untreated wood.

For some assemblies go to the link below.
http://xrl.us/Assemblies

The assemblies are all there, but it is just not that easy to find what you are looking for, try clicking on the C-AJ assemblies.

Edit: I will try to fix the link.

I think the link will work now.

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 11-11-2005).]

George,
I look for Fire rated material only on fire rated assemblies. If they use it where not required I have no problem, I'm not paying for it.
In non-rated assemblies draft stopping with any material is O.K.
The draft stop can be at the top or the bottom or both.
Alan--

George around here, {Mass) it is the building inspector that requires this. They want fire caulk in all vertical penetrations for residential construction. (That is waht I am familiar with) Even for a one room remodel. This is done by the GC not the electrician in my experience.

Sorry for my meager contribution.

Bow to Bob and Roger

George I do thank you for the kind words and rest assured I learn much from all your questions here.

I think you are an asset to ECN.

Now here are my thoughts on the question.

I don't know anything about it.

I use what is either in the job specifications or what the purchasing department gets me.

It is always true fire rated seal, but I suspect we use it for areas we really do not have to.

I defer to Roger on fire proofing he always seems to have the info at his fingertips.

Bob

The 2000 International Residential Code requires a fire block: "At openings around vents, pipes, and ducts at ceiling and floor level, with an approved material to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion."

What makes a material "approved" is that it is acceptable to the building official. Some may approve mineral wool, others tightly packed fiberglass, but all inspectors will accept the listed fire caulking (when installed according to that listing).

I find it interesting that cables are not specifically listed as requiring fire blocking, but it is universally enforced as requiring fire blocking.

When spray foam is used (for simple non-fire proof draft stopping), are there any issues with the solvents or blowing agents damaging the cable insulation?

Are there any listed foams that are specifically designed to work with electrical insulation?

-Jon

I am not aware of any foams made specifically for use with electrical wires. As far as I know, UL only tests such products as their use pertains to fire-rated assemblies.
UL has other standards that relate to flamability- and you can be sure none of the foams pass, as they all burn like rocket fuel. (As a historical note, it was the use of such foams, and their ignition by a plumber checking for drafts with a candle, that led to a nearly disasterous fire at the Browns' Ferry Nuclear Plant in the '70's....and which in turn spurred the development of the fire-resistant caulks we now use.)

The foams are mostly made of a urethane resin and catalyst, which reacts with water in the air to form a urethane foam. Crumbly as they seem, urethane is considered a syntheyic rubber. There really aren't any "solvents" as such involved. As urethane is itself used as electrical insulation (that red varnish on motor windings is also urethane), I don't see any risk here.

There is, of course, no reason you can't seal the hles the old-fashioned way, with joint compound, mortar, or plaster.

As earlydean said, the 2000 IRC requires fireblocking at certain areas. It also list products used for firestopping. Firecaulk is not one of them as it is an overkill. In residential we are usually dealing with wood studs, wood joists, wood subfloor, wood sheathing...see a pattern here? The basic idea is to stop the air from going thru the holes for as long as it would take to burn thru the wood. Rockwool is the draftstop of choice in this area.

To sort of recap some of the discussion, and to add some "Code-Weenie" input:
George, your key work there is "non-fire rated".
Looking at the Int. Bldg. Code (IBC) ch. 7, we see the distinction between "fire-stopping", which is use of tested/listed materials or products as part of a fire-rated assembly. Where, and how, and what, are discussed in IBC ch. 7. IF you're having trouble sleeping, it makes a good read!
IBC sec. 717.2 requires "fireblocking" to cut off fire travel from wall cavities to floor and roof cavities above, and from floor cavities below to wall cavities.
717.2.1 lists materials, all of which have been used for decades: 2x blocking, drywall, plywood, particleboard, or batt insulation. Note that this stuff isn't air tight 100%. It's not "rated". not tested or listed. It just makes it really hard for fire, or hot gas, or smoke, to progress from space to space. The bottom of the code section paragraph says "... to retard the spread of fire and hot gases".
2 cents done.

Thanks, all, for a great set of forums.

What is required in the top and bottom plate is a fire stopping. The only wall in a residence that is fire rated is the wall between the residence and garage. There I would require a ul listed product such as duct seal. George what do you require in the through penitrations of the cold air return? (Horizontal)

Actually, the wall between the house and the garage is not a rated wall. The IRC only requires it to be 1/2 inch sheetrock, and 5/8 inch type X for ceilings of garages where habitable spaces are above. (also, if the ceiling separates the garage from a habitable space, then the exterior supporting walls also need 1/2 inch sheetrock.)

The only rated wall required in residential construction is the wall separating individual dwelling units of two and multi-family buildings. This "party" wall must have a 2-hour rating, commonly achieved with 2 layers on each side of 5/8 inch type X sheetrock.

The IRC also makes it clear that wood or sheetrock cannot be used for the fireblocking requirement around pipes and cables. Only "approved materials" can be used.
The commentary calls the material "firestopping", the code text requires "fireblocking". I think the terms are interchangable.

I may have mis spoke. The penetrations top and bottom is not called firestopping but draft stopping. That is what I recall from my residential days.

Firestopping/blocking is very specific in nature.
I went to a state sponsered course a week ago, and I am taking a class on Tuesday. When I am finished with the class, I will relate some info here. My eyes were opened at the State course, and I hope to have a more thorough understanding after Tuesday.

NYS is heading in the direction of having certification for the installer of firestopping. I mentioned this before, and some got upset. The reality is that there are many installations that do not meet the minimum installation requirements, and the authorities are aware of this.