As an installer, would you install this lighting in a closet or as an Inspector would you approve this installation in a closet? http://homepage.mac.com/georgelittle/closetlight.jpg

this is a UL listed product.

I don't like the design of them. The light doubles as a hangar rack too, right? That's what I see anyway. How this product ever got UL listed is beyond me. I'm interested in what some of the inspectors here have to say about these lights. In my opinion, they are NO GOOD.

It is listed as a garment hanging rod and yes the lighting is inside the rod. When I approached the manufacturer (via e-mail) they said it was up to the Inspector to approve or not approve it.

These light rods were brought up at the Southern Sectional meeting of the IAEI this week. Mark Ode of UL said that they had not listed them and he had no knowledge of anyone else that had.

The light violates the clearance requirements of 410.8.

No I would not install nor would I pass.

This is what I got from the manufacturer when I asked them:



It's rather clear that their product is Listed but the don't say for residential.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 10-14-2005).]

See General Information for Low-voltage Lighting Systems, Power Units, Luminaires and Fittings


ARDEE LIGHTING INC E130687
639 WASHBURN SWITCH RD
PO BOX 1769
SHELBY, NC 28151 USA

Cabinet Lights, Series ACL and MC25.

CLIKSTRIP inserts, Cat. Nos. HIBLC, HIBLF, HIF, HIFS, HIR.

Fixture assembly, Cat. No. SKMa# where # designates color and may be any letter A thru Z and may be any number 1 thru 4 or any of the following: 3L20, 3L40, 3L60, 4L20, 4L40, 4L60.

Low voltage cabinet light system, Series DISKUS with or without additional suffix with Class 2 transformer.

____________________________________________
Here is that number searched on the UL web site. As you can see these fixtures are NOT listed for closets. Look closely and see if you see the word cabinet instead of closet.

I agree with you JW, but you'll notice that these "cabinet lights" are Listed and are used in cabinets in closets and the garment rod is used for hanging clothes. Mark was mistaken in stating that they were not listed. I think that ther might be more to the story. I personally don't care for them but I don't think they are hazardous. They certianly don't meet code, as you mentioned. On a lighter note HID fixtures are not in the list of "Fixtures types not permitted in closets. If a contractor installed a HID fixture in a closet, I'd be hard pressed to find a code reference dis-allowing it.

I should have been a littler clearer with my quote of Mark Ode. He said they were not listed for the rod in a closet nor had any one listed them for that purpose due to the fact that it violated the NEC.

I saw a picture of a similar rod about six to eight months ago that was like fiber optic. The light source was in the attic or under the floor. I understand that the lighting effect left a lot to be desired. It seems that when the rod is full there is not much light to be had.

I think this might be something that would be used in a clothing store for lighting up the clothes hanging on rods. I went to their web site and most of their graphics show this type of use. My problem is I see mostly high end housing (5 Mil and up) and some of these closets are bigger than my living room and they always want things they see in home decorator magazines and they have some mighty fancy closet organizer things.

As and AHJ, if the EC can PROVE to me that they are indeed listed and labeled for the use, then I would have to accept them. I think however that these lights don't look that safe, and I am not sure about their listing yet. I would rather not have to deal with these yet.

The lighted rods are designed for retail store usage. It appears that ratail store conditions would apply to walk in "closets."

I would mark "clothes storage room" on the plans rather than "closet." That should make everyone happy.

Very interesting paradox. We have an item of minimal risk, with a UL sticker, being used in a manner that is attractive, useful, and directly in conflict with the code.

Our fear is the accumulation of heat, leading to a fire. Yet the code, as written, would not allow the use of an LED strip in this location- a source that is essentially without heat.

As for the UL listing- I don't think they even have a standard for closet rods. How much weight should it hold, what break-away provisions should there be?

On challenge in lighting a closet is that you usually end up standing between the light and whatever you're looking for!

I am assuming these are fluorescent lights. If the rods were fiber optic, with the lamp mounted elsewhere....they just might pass muster.

The code calls for 6" of clearance between the clothes (and flammables) and the light. Just for fun, I went to my closet with a tape measure. I found a 2" clearance between the top of the rod and the bottom of the shelf.
The clothes were another matter. At the center of the hangar, there was generally a 3" clearance. Due to the shape of the hangar, this clearance almost immediately increased to infinity- the "shoulders" slope away at an angle.

So it's a violation; the question is: How important of one? Just how much of a risk is there that something will go wrong?

I think 410.8 needs to address this type of light specifically. I think UL needs to develop a specific standard for it, and list these items in accordance with their uses.

[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 10-16-2005).]

What is the light source? Is it actually in the tube?
LED? Fiber?

http://www.ardeelighting.com/subpage.php?id=retail_rod

"Hang garments or any other merchandise from these stylish, UL-Listed illuminated rods. Retail rods are 1-3/8" O.D. extruded aluminum and house T2 or T5 lamps (3000ºK). It can be wall or surface mounted as specified and comes in satin aluminum, satin gold, and white or black paint finishes. Available standard lengths from 12 to 60 inches, and custom lengths up to 12 feet."

Notice the name, "Retail" they are intended for a store as has been suggested.

They have this though, that they say can be used in residential closets: http://www.ardeelighting.com/subpage.php?id=clikstrip_cr

Its a 12V incandescent. I dont have my code book at home, does it say anything about the voltage of the fixture?

George,

I would use 410.5 and 410.6

Also in 410.8 it lists the types of fixtures permitted and if you consider this a "surface mounted" one, it would not meet code.

Dave

I think all HID fixtures have lenses. I thought someone would say that since it's not listed in Permitted it would not be allowed. I'm finding out that in nearly all cases "uses permited" is not all inclusive whereas "uses not permitted" is all inclusive. So it's the incandescent that needs the lens. The HID and LED are permitted and with HID we need to be aware of heat and combustibles and LED are allowed and they don't have a heat problem. Crazy code

I recently had it out with an Arch from NY thats says "Oh we can do this everywhere else but here" (SF) Had to describe the difference in Display Cabinet vs. Closet a few times. IMO I wouldn't allow Incand. strips in the tube. Its closed, entraps heat, and I have seen LV connections heat up. The cover could break and still remain in use. (To some wet out of the shower type person.)

I get this all the time... People who want lights in the closet, and THEY want to tell ME what type of light THEY want, and where THEY want it. I have no idea how many times I have printed that section of code.... And they still want them. So lately, I then I tell this story, which is TRUE!

I was out with my wife, and mother-in-law, and a few of her friends for dinner a few months ago.... "Oh so Mark what do you do?" I'm an Electrician, Yeah, yeah, yeah.... Older woman at the end of the table says, "You don't put lights in closets do you?" I say, "Well only of a certain type and certain distance, blah, blah, blah... She then goes on to tell me that she had a light controled by a door switch in a linen closet. And that one night her son came home with a guest after a night of drinking, and pulled out some blankets for the guest. Some pillows fell down on the light, and that her son, not thinking left the door partially open, or so they think. (Second opinion of the Fire Dept. confirmed.) She wakes up later to smoke detectors going off, and opens the hall door to find flames creeping down the walls and cieling of the hall. Then her daughter opens her bedroom door, and says "Mom, I'm jumping out my window, I suggest you do the same." Little did they know at the time, that the daughter had been jumping out her window into a tree to go out at night for years.... So the daughter gets out with no problems, but this woman (In her sixties at the time.) and her husband (Of equal age) have no escape but to jump from the second story un-aided. The husband breaks an arm, and she a leg. The daughter finds them, and they cant find the brother/son is.... They figure he's still asleep in his room which was on the opposite side of the fire in the hall from them, and the house is quickly becoming fully engaged. So they start thowing rocks through his window, which hit his guest, who is sleeping on the floor in the forehead. The drunken brother wakes up, realizes what is happening, and that they too have no escape other than out the window. He then throws his drunken friend with the head wound out the window, who lands like a sack of cement, and jumps out after / on top of him. The fire consumes most of the house, and starts falling in on itself as the Fire Dept arrive.

Moral of the story... Don't let your drunken son bring home late night house guests, and get rid of that light in the linen closet....

Anyway, I do think that if lights ARE, and they WILL want them in closets, that they be of the coolest/cold lamping possible. And T-5 Zenon, or Halogen, is not it....

The real answer is a LED light for closets. They can be completely sealed units and have negligable heat. I am surprised the manufacturers are not leaping at this opportunity but they are not really recognized in the code yet. I have a proposal in.

There's more to this story.

I find that a similar product is mad by Archetectural Products by Outwater www.outwater.com and is being clearly marketed for use as a hanging rod in closets.

UL may have listed products in conflict with the NEC.

Just an update to an old thread ...

Responding to my proposal, the 2008 NEC has mad changes to 410.16, making it possible for such a product to be listed for such use, in a clothes closet.

Damn, that's actually pretty cool, reno:

http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/2007_master/lg_display.cfm?page_number=598

Shame it only comes in 2' and 3' lengths. I'd have liked to put one in my closet, but it's 5' wide. Also, I don't have $100 to spend on it. Oh well...