Has anyone heard of SER being listed as not needing to be protected from physical protection? Code reference please. Thanks

"Needing protection" is a pretty subjective thing- you're generally stuck with what the AHJ says.

I can think of situations where unprotected, open (insulated) condustors have been in place for decades without harm; I also know of places where schedule 80 steel pipe has prooven inadequate.

The photo forums have countless pics of otherwise code-compliant installations where the components were seriously damaged. Such damage is proof that the original install was not adequate- and, with luck, the repair will provide better protection!

Since you mentioned SER, I can only speculate it is being used to supply power to a service. In that case, the local PoCo rules will also apply. These tend to be much more specific than the NEC, and vary widely from place to place.

Check out 338.10(B)(4)(a) for a guide we need to look at the same protection as needed for NM cable.

I meant to say physical damage. I was told by someone that physical protection is not needed for SER because it is listed as not needing it.

The someone who told you SE cable doesn't need protection was mistaken. Look at 230.50.

Let me describe the installation. This is a manufactured home. The Service equipment was over 30' away so a disconnect was installed on a 4x4 post next to the home URD was run from the service equipment to the disconnect in PVC. From the back of the disconnect a #2 SER was run under the manufactured home to the 1.5" stub from the panel and they used a 1.5" female PVC adapter and screwed in a 1.5" SER connector into it.They used a PVC 2 hole strap to support it to the frame.

George, as much as I respect your input, I must disagree. According to your response that would mean every service change that I have ever done that didnt need a riser was illegal, and out of the bottom of every meter can, if it wasnt in conduit, was illegal.

According to 230.50 they shall be protected against physical damage as in (A) Service cables, WHERE SUBJECT TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE, shall be protected by any of the following.....and so on.

At this point, the electrician should know where or where not the cable itself is subject to physical damage.

Let me edit this...on the side of a house, it is not exposed to PHYSICAL DAMAGE, in this case, it is not exposed to damage that I can see.



[This message has been edited by MI Sparky (edited 09-07-2005).]

This protection thing seems to be regional.
In Md they routinely ran romex on running boards on the walls of garages and utility areas. Service entrance cable was strapped up the wall unprotected.
Here in Florida all of that is going to be in some kind of raceway.

Okay- Let me qualify my answer. The trigger for protection is if the cable is subject to physical damage. This becomes a case by case determination. But to say SE or SER cable don't need physical protection would be not accurate. If it's on the driveway side of a home and the driveway is narrow, maybe a car door opening could cause damage. If it's run through a crawl space it probably wouldn't need physical protection. If it's subject to lawn equipment or storage materials maybe it needs protection. So the answer is definitely/maybe it needs protection

Sorta like "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it"

hahahaha....EXACTLY.

Using the quote, given above, of the poster (gserve) then this now becomes an issue of 550. In 550.15 (H) we are told that this is a very big NO NO


Not only does this violate 550.15 (H) but a good look at 550.33 will shed more light on this matter



[This message has been edited by jw electric (edited 09-08-2005).]

Congratulation JW Electric you caught it where everyone else was trying to figure out protection for SER when it was used as a feeder for a modular home. I agree on 550.33 Feeders [A] it has to be 4 insulated wires.

Wow must have missed that in the code somewhere along the way. That code is not inforced by any length here in Utah . You will get exactly what gserve described basically.

Now what if the manufactured home is sitting on a foundation. Is the SER really exposed to moisture strapped to the bottom of the home or just humidity.

Neil

I would say that the question is not if there is a permanent foundation but rather does this installation fall under 550.

Is this a mobile or manufactured home?
If it is then all of 550 would apply all of the time.

Is this a mobile or manufactured home! LOL.

Their is no such thing as a mobile home just ask the people living in them . I get slapped around any more on calls for using the term mobile.

So does being a manufactured home put this in a differant catagory.

It is a manufactured home(double wide)set up on piers on a slab and skirted in a park. The term mobile home now refers to single wide homes. Modulars are set on a permanent foundation like stick built.

Well let’s see just what the big red book has to say:


I slapped this big red book all over the room down the hall and out into the front yard but it is clear that no matter weather it is a Mobile Home or a Manufactured Home it is still a Mobile Home we call them trailers where I live.

"I think they all look better as beer cans," Jimmy Buffet.

So where is the quote button


“550.15 (H) Under-Chassis Wiring (Exposed to Weather). Where outdoor or under-chassis line-voltage (120 volts, nominal, or higher) wiring is exposed to moisture or physical damage, it shall be protected by rigid metal conduit or intermediate metal conduit. The conductors shall be suitable for wet locations.”

This is why I hate code at times. Isn't the key to this in "(Exposed to weather)" . Once the home is placed and the skirting is up around the home it is no longer Exposed to weather. I have done mobile offices and have piped them all the way but never have a home in a park or one that sitts on a foundation. We have a manufactured home account that sets them , I have done quite a few. Possibly all wrong but I don't think so. This point is arguable simply by it's wording . SER is moisture resistant. If run in a way protected from physical damage and all the other good stuff.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“550.33 (A) Feeder Conductors. Feeder conductors shall consist of either a listed cord, factory installed in accordance with 550.10(B), or a permanently installed feeder consisting of four insulated, color-coded conductors that shall be identified by the factory or field marking of the conductors in compliance with 310.12. Equipment grounding conductors shall not be identified by stripping the insulation.”


As for that with SER I am not stripping the insulation it comes bare. The ground wire is insulated in the SER sheathing.

It does need protection from physical damage. As long as the underside is NOT being used for storage and there is going to be a skirting put on or other permanent barrier around the outside of the home I would think your good to go .

Neil

I found it

This is how you do it. you type [ quote ] put in your quote then type [/ quote ]

Now I left spaces in the UBB code so you could see it, close the spaces up and it looks like the above quote.

Go here https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/ubbcode.html for more info.

Bob

The text you are quoting clearly say "Insulated Color Coded conductors".The jacket doesn't count as insulated nor is it color coded. Sorry.

Bomzin
Every day on the way to and from I am passed by those who are driving over the speed limit. Just because they are not getting a ticket does not mean they aren’t breaking the law.

On the Mobile, Manufactured and Modular home the two rules that is being violated with the use of SER cable are 550.15 (H) and 550.33.

Before we look at 550.15 (H) let’s look at another section in 550.15.

the part of this section that is in bold says that if it is likely to be damaged by stowage it shall be protected. This is why in (H) it states or under-chassis wiring shall be protected. Most people use the space under the trailer for storage of lawn mowers and such.
Notice that the exception that is in bold allows the use of EMT or RNC if it is run against the frame.

None of this matters because of 550.33. Now when we read this section we need to pay close attention to the word insulated as this does not allow a bare conductor that is covered. The equipment grounding conductor in SER is bare and covered by the sheathing.

I have heard a lot of people say that they have been doing this for years and my reply is, “that doesn’t make it right.”
As I stated earlier in this post about speeding, one cop will let 7 MPH go while another will ticket at 5 MPH over.

Myself, if I were a traffic cop the ticket would come at one MPH over. Not only that but once I caught you I would be watching you from then on. I love my insurance companies.

Luckily the judges would quickly tire of you crowding their courtrooms and fix your 1 MPH enforcement.

That said SER is out under mobile homes, that is not just 1 MPH over. Looking at my NEC to traffic law converter I would say that is more like 25 over in a 30 zone.

Slightly off track...Crystal Lake, IL doesn't allow NM in branch circuits, but allows SER??? I must not have it right, because I'm thinking physical protection is an issue at 15 and 20-amp, 120-volt, but not at 200-amp, 240-volt??? It may have changed, but I've seen services with SER.

Dave

And why not?

SER is of course service entrance cable.

Iwire will you stop that if I laugh any harder my side will split.

The thing is many will not see any humor there.

Those that have grown up seeing only RMC services have a real problem accepting SE as anything more than big zip cord.

In this area SE, PVC and RMC are all used depending on the location, specifications or the installers preference.

Bob

Of course I didn't even crack a smile. It looks like a big zip-cord to me.

Dave

So what's so funny about that, Bob?