The situation is as follows:

All-in-one above ground spa that sits on a concrete pad.

Unit is hard wired to a GFCI C/B (50Amp) but the panel is not within sight of the spa.

Is a dissconnect within sight of the spa required?

I say yes (Art. 680.12). It seems pretty clear cut to me.

Thanks

Steve

Yep I agree. The only bone of contention is if there is an integrated disconnect under the cover that is part of the listed assembly. I say that would suffice but I don't think a field installed switch inside the assembly would be kosher.
Otherwise you need a disconnect within site but >5' away from the water's edge.

The actual words say that "Each means shall be accessible and within sight from it's equipment". IMHO the disconnect under the skirt satisfies both of these requirements. If there's a switch, installed under the skirt that's what it is for, to satisfy 680.12. Assume this is a residential installation and doesn't require a panic switch.

I haven't seen any with a switch that satisfies 680.12 under the skirt. "disconnect all ungrounded conductors" Often the skirt is screwed shut... Hardly accessable. Nor do I think you should be able to mess with said switch, if it had one, while in, or in contact with the tub. I think the idea was to have just about everything outside of 5' away from pools and spas including the disco. 680.41 would have you install a disco >5' within site, but for some reason doesn't apply to single family...

e57,

The disco is required even on single family installations. The emergency stop is not required on single family install.

I would like someone to explain how a disco under the skirt could be considered "in sight" or meet the >5' requirement.

[This message has been edited by Jim M (edited 08-23-2005).]

e57- Look at the difinition of accessible and you could re-think your understanding. If we are under the '02 NEC I'd buy the disconnect under the skirt as code compliant but the '05 uses the words "readily accessible" and now that might change the way I look at this issue.

If the spa don't have a disconnect under the skirt, maybe that's where the installer will install the required "maintenance disconnect"

Jim- the words are "within sight from it's equipment" The spa is not "it's equipment" the pump is. That's the equipment that the switch disconnects. At least that's my the way I see it. Why do you think the manufacturer (some) installs that switch there?

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 08-23-2005).]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I don't think I would consider any switch under the skirt/cover/side to meet the >5', though it would qualify as a "disconnect".

Of course, I also think that the NEC could be stated in "plain language" a lot more and that they (NEC) need to say what they mean clearly and concisly and to mean what they say.

But that is an issue for a whole other discussion. (grin)

Jim, wasn't trying to imply the disco wasnt required, just that that other code included the language of "within site" as well. And also applicable if not at a single family. Often I use this to cover both codes.

george, This is from the commentary following 680.12, yes I know its not code, but as refferance to my thinking that the disco is not for the pump alone... Something I feel without the commentary. As it says, "all utilization equipment" I see that to include all of the (Mostly Automatic) Controls.

Maybe its a regional thing, but I haven't seen ANY controls under the skirt, in eons.

And I believe it is 680.22(C) that puts that switch >5' away.

Also, there are two different "Accessable" definitions

"Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means." Like having a 6~8'X30" plywood panel with square drive screws put in with an impact wrench. With a deck built around it.... The idea is to shut the power off before you work on it. You wouldn't put the disco for any other equipment inside it would you.

And....
"Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."

If in other than single family, you would need "readily accessible". To cover 680.41 with a handy lable saying "Emergency shut off" Nothing in the NEC says it need be a panic switch just, "shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system".

e57-I'm not convinced that the maintenance disconnect we're talking about is required to be in addition to any disconnect located under the skirt of the spa. In fact since you've quoted the hand book I'm more convinced that this switch (under the skirt) is the only one required. The term "it's equipment" is talking about the equipment powered through the switch. There doesn't appear to be a need for any other disconnect for lights etc. If the disconnect disconnects "it's equipment" the two are required to be within sight of each other. If you must open the skirt of the spa to service it, square head screws and all, that's okay because now the disconnect and "it's equipment" are within sight of each other. Sometimes the spa and spa pack are not together. The pump and sanitation equipment are remote from the spa and then the disconnect must be located by "it's equipment" and I know we agree on this senario. As for the"panic button" I should have said "emergency switch" but HEY, means the same thing

George,
All codes aside... We're talking about a large tub of water, often installed outdoors. Although GFI fed, you would still have live conductors under the rim of what is technicaly a pool. In an area that could be very wet. Maintained by a pool guy, who may or may not have access to the disco for the feeder, and has a job to do. I would preffer, due to conciance(MS), to even provide wider than work-space requirements for the access to the shut off so he can work. Even though it is doubtfull I would ever meet this person.

Also, I have not seen one with a switch of any kind under the skirt in about 5 years. (May be due to dominant brand in this area)Many barely have room for a flex to the relay box, never-mind a 60A disco, and thatIMO is what you want to shut off. Most of these have 3 modes, jets on, clean, and stand-by/auto.

Here's another oblique method of thinking. All electrical wiring method not assoiated with the tub needs to be outside of 5'. (As it is considered a pool.) Is the portion of the feeder before the disco "associated" with the tub? ("Associated" in listed, factory installed way.)

e57- All codes aside- I'd agree with you and on my own spa (if I had one) I'd install a switch remote from the spa strictly so I didn't have to open the spa skirt for a disconnect. But if I was in a competitive biding situation, I'd offer it as optional. I have inspected spas with a two pole GFCI as the disconnect under the skirt.

Disco under the skirt in the '99 cycle, there would be no debate, its a violation.


1999

2002 changes the wording and organization of the article.

2002

And... (Which is something else in the '99)

I wonder what 2005 has for wording....

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 08-27-2005).]

680.12 added "readily" to accessible. No screwed down cover.

If I may ask a related question...

How does one measure the 5' distance? What if the disconnect were under a deck surrounding a halfway-sunken tub, meaning that the bottom half of the tub is visible below the decking?

Is the distance measured in a straight line, ignoring physical barriers, or along a pathway that, say, a rope or one's arms must take from the tub's rim, around the deck's edge and/or skirt, and back under?

This is the handbook commentary,
"Panelboards, time clocks, pool light switches, and so on, where located not less than 5 ft horizontally from the inside walls of a pool without a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier, must be out of reach of persons who are in the pool, thereby preventing contact and possible shock hazards."

You could easily argue that the deck is a barrier which prevents someone in the spa from touching the switch

"You could easily argue that the deck is a barrier which prevents someone in the spa from touching the switch"

I can, and I shall. Thanx!