Before calling for a "final electrical inspection" the following is required:

1.) All appliances, fixtures, outlets, panels, switches, etc. must be installed.

2.) All electrical wiring must be complete.

3.) The panel index must be complete (i.e., the legend located on the electrical panel door that shows which overcurrent device controls the specific appliances or lighting circuits).

I challenge anyone who is involved in the inspection process who would give a "FINAL" electrical inspection when the above simple list is not followed!

Look at the results of a search for "Final Electrical Inspection" on Google:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=final+electrical+inspection&btnG=Search

The results show where the subject of a final electrical inspection is covered in the rules where building departments give their requirements.

Joe I can only relate what I see here in MA and RI and it is not what you want it to be.


Appliances?

Hardwired ones yes, cord and plug connected items like washers, dryers, ranges and refrigerators no.

Fixtures?

We have been down that road, in this area blanked lighting outlets are commonly accepted.

The best way to describe what is expected at a final in this area would be "All openings shall be closed and the panel schedule shall be complete".

The inspectors check for NEC compliance, they do not check to see if it matches the prints, they do not check the operation of the circuits.

In this state there is a mandated 1 year warranty, if items do not work the customer will call and we must fix it.

Now you can choose not to believe me, thats your choice. The fact remains I am out in the field meeting inspectors and passing my inspections on a regular basis.

The system in this area as it stands works well, the majority of electrical work I come across is of good quality.

Bob

Bob:

One of the reasons that appliances should be installed is to verify their proper connections, this includes disposals, dish washers, trash compactors, and electric ranges, and cook tops to name a few.

I have experienced the installation of the electrical ranges in buildings by the people who delivered the equipment, and found that the range cords, used to supply the range were not properly connected using the correct connector, and instead was just passed through the sharp open knockout.

This can lead to a hazard when the homeowner pulls the range out for cleaning.

I imagine that the inspectors that you have dealt with in MA and RI are comfortable with your work and company and change their rules because you are a nice guy and work for a reputable company.

I hope to hear from any MA and RI electrical inspector here on this board who disagrees with me, and if so, they would admit to doing less than they were hired to do.

Joe, Please humor me for a moment.

A developer decides to build a multi-unit condo building on speculation. They hire a GC and the GC hires subs. We build the building to prints. By the time we get to final inspections some units are usually sold and we may be asked to wire the units owners appliances and fixtures at an extra charge.

However many units will not have been sold an do not have appliances or fixtures. They where not on the prints as they will be supplied by the condo units purchaser

The NEC does not require washers, dryers, refrigerators or luminaires, only provisions for those items. An inspector can not force the owners to install these items at the time of final.

The owner may never install the washer and dryer, they may use a laundry service.

Whatever the case may be it's not the inspectors business to worry about.

If they are not on the prints we turned in for our permit then they are not subject to our final inspection.

Now if we follow the letter of the law in MA another permit should be pulled by whoever does install these items and then inspections should follow. (Yeah...that will happen. )

You may think this is an odd scenario but it is more common then you may think.

Developers do not provide fixtures and appliances for a unit that is unsold.

My point here is not everything is black and white, different jobs require different inspection processes.

My Condo example could just as easily be a group of single family homes built by a developer on spec. When we finish our job per the prints it is time for the inspector to sign us off on the final, appliances and Luminaires not holding things up.


JMO, Bob

Bob:

I understand your scenario very well, and agree that an "Electrical Inspector" can "Final" any job on a unit by unit basis.

Keeping the permits open for those units that are not occupied yet.

If one of those condo owners you mentioned wanted to sell their unit, they probably would have to get a home inspection before the sale would go through.

The lack of any final installations, such as the appliances you mention, may or may not be there, but, again the range and other items that include the other appliances I mentioned usually will be installed after the occupant takes possession of the unit.

I have inspected many condos and buildings in New Haven, Connecticut and Glendale and Pasadena, California areas since 1969, why we even had buildings with "free electricity" for all occupants with a one meter job.

Massachusetts, and RI construction projects are controlled by many political interferences and will probably never change. Not to mention the Union and Non-Union issues.

One of the best experiences I can remember is that I worked in areas where there was no "Political Interference" and we never had any problems when the issues about the condition of a FINAL were considered.

I am waiting for the day that you decide, if ever, to take on a job as an AHJ where you will have an opportunity to go onto jobs that were done be your competitor's, maybe then you will understand.

In the meantime I will ask some of my associates about this issue and based upon the link above will probably find more support for my views that yours.

Joe- I, like you, have been around a long time in the inspection business. I've been an inspector in Michigan for 20+ years and a contractor prior to that. Been up through the chairs in the IAEI Michigan Chapter. Sometimes I don't agree with your "preachings" but on this one you and are 100% in agreement. Bob is obviously an honorable electrician and hopefully one day he will get into inspecting and then he'll realize what a difference there is between contractors.

Thanks George

Let's call in some of the amendments from your State.

Also, how are my "preachings" any different than yours?

Some examples please?

So you would hold off final on a cubicle connection? Where often the banks will not fund money until the buildings are finaled?

I've never had a problem getting finaled with a few loose ends. Though I have a couple things going for me that help:

1) Clean up the job. If you have material and tools everywhere the inspector will think you aren't ready.
2) Be honest with the inspector. I tell the inspector what’s left and why its not done. No inspector I know is going to hold up final because the owner’s forklift charger is still shipping.
3) Have everything labeled in print. A label maker makes your job look like you are on top of things. This makes the inspector more comfortable releasing the building.

Inspectors are human too (well for most cities ). Have the job look professional and be honest with the inspectors and usually they will be helpful on getting the building passed.

Is there any requirement that the owners of these dwelings have a Range, Disposal, Dishwasher, etc... installed after they purchase these units.

That's kind of like making some one buy a Cadilac when all they wanted to buy was an Impalla.

If someone roughed in for a Central Air, yet they discovered the house would be cool all Summer without it, so they decided not to purchase and install the Condensing unit, would they never get a final?

Roger

Joe,
I agree with your list but, (isn't there always a BUT) the inclusion of appliances in my opinion would only be those that are directly connected. Cord and plug appliances would not be required.
This does lead to the non-GFCI protected outlet in the garage for the freezer.
I'm sure you have heard of the contractor with the empty freezer carton that moved it from job to job.
If this was easy anyone could do it and electricians would be working for minimum wage.
Alan--Inspector

Yes Roger for cooking:

See the Definition of Dwelling Unit in Article 100 --

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.

I agree with everyones points here, but I have to side with iwire here.

If a Final can't be done because the home isn't sold yet, the homeowner/occupant can't make up thier minds or for a host of other reasons, not excluding backordered appliances.

What is the EC to do?

Wait for another 6 months till the unit is sold before he can bill and get paid awaiting final inspection?

Wait 6 months before the final to start to the warranty period?


There has to be some bending by inspectors on this. In this area we use 3rd party inspectors, some guys will just use another inspector if they have too.

Joe, you have had to of seen a rangetop not installed because the custom marble countertop hasn't been made yet?

What about a "Provisional Final"?


Dnk.......

Hello Alan:

Can I remind you of your inspection procedures that you sent to me for inclusion the book I wrote back in 1990?

I can send them to you if you want.

I remember an Alan Nadon who was far more concerned about safety than it appears now, and one who got up toward the mike at IAEI meetings when issues came up that were from the "good old boys" on the Code Panels.

But means .... ?

When we get older we mellow, is that it?

Dnk..

Provisional Final? What does that mean?

Please don't get me started on 3rd party inspection agencies!

I have heard some arguments by contractors in the past from some such as:

"If you call out those items I will not use your services anymore!"

In some areas it is the "envelope" that gets the final!

I'd like to meet the inspector that pulls out a range, removes the wiring cover and checks to see if there is a proper strain relief on the cord and if the bonding jumper is installed or not.

Electricmanscott

Even if the delivery person installed the range and connected the cord?

You know better, and I would not question you or any electrician for that matter, but again I have seen the delivery person connect the cord, and you can't deny that it may present a problem.

I will bet that Insurance Inspectors, those who understand the issues, would LOL with these discussions.

So be it, I still have an hour while wainting in the St Louis airport before I fly home to Boston.

Let me ask this Joe and George.

Are you both saying you would not give me my final if a stove or dryer is not in place and that are not on my submitted plans?

In regards to luminaires.

Is it your opinion that if the electrician installs a ceiling outlet in the living room that the homeowner must now and forever more keep a luminaire installed on that outlet?

Bob

Okay Joe, let's go ahead and install a gas cook top in this dwelling unit, yet still have a Rough in present for a cord Connected Range (maybe a future down draft Jen-air) that is not installed.

What about the rest of my post?

BTW, I think it is apparent that Alan is very concerned in safety.

Roger

By Roger

By Joe T.

Joe this post of yours has left me almost speechless.

Do I understand you correctly?

Your opinion is that the NEC Article 100 definition of dwelling unit means a range must be installed?

That is truly grasping at straws, you can't be serious.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-31-2005).]

Thank you and I try to be, one day I hope to be sitting on that side of the fence.

That aside honorable or dishonorable the rules should be applied equally.

Gentlmen, Let me tell you of my experiences in MI. In almost all cases the 1st job I've done in any AHJ's area, he has done a rather thorough Inspection. This means he checked for proper wiring on most circuits including switches. However, in 98% of inspectors I have dealt with that was only on the 1st job of mine that they inspected. The vast majority of inspectors here in MI are very reasonable. I have seen a few exceptions but not many. By the way I have run a 14-3 to a receptacle when I knew I wouldn't have proper luminaire for final.

Larry Houle

Joe- I can't think of any "preachings" that happened lately but I'm sure there were some where you and I differed. That's okay, it shows we are both thinking and sometimes all of us have to re-think things. As to the amendment to the code here in Michigan, we only have three that are noteworthy.
1. NM cable is permitted above three floors in all types of construction.
2. An EGC is required in all flexible wiring methods except FMT which no one uses here in Michigan anyway.
3. And, 230.40 Ex. 3 has been deleted. Utility interest.



[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 07-31-2005).]

Joe, "Provisional"

Some way of passing the electrical with some type of footnotes, like:

Electrical final approved, but awaiting final appliance, or something that allows the EC to bill and accept warranty times without waiting for the GC, homeowner or such. We all know, that the wriiten word is final, but sometimes, something has to bend.

You've never driven 56 in a 55?

By the way Joe, the 3rd party inspectors I use are great. they are very informative and helpful. Like us EC, not all are bad. I can't speak highly enough of the outfit I use.

Dnk.....

Dnk, in the case of this thread, the Appliances and Luminaires are not required, so there is nothing as far as a "Written Word" needing to bent for the final.

Roger

The appliance thing is what I am referring to Roger.


Dnk.......

Joe,
This may be to your liking. In my area, you can get a "Temporary Occupancy" provided the Dwelling, Unit or Bldg is in a safe condition ie..Panel Directory, common devices installed, Speacialty Devices installed or blanked off till they arrive, Fixtures (you have to have a majority installed for saftey and it can be a porcilin base) installed or Blanked Off, for residences Major Kitchen Appliances, Heating of the dwelling, for commercial Heating and A/C must be operational.
This will get the customer moved into a "Safe Atmosphere" but the Final Inspection must follow within 12 months or the permit will expire.
The inspector will look at work not performed after the TO was signed off. This system works well here as it would anywhere, everyone just needs to get used to it as the status quo.
Also, with TO we can get paid to 90% of contract until the Final Insp.

As far as your "Challange", its good that you have such strong morals.

Respectfully submitted
Rob

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 07-31-2005).]

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 07-31-2005).]

Sounds like some of you guy/girls would have a tough life working here in Michigan. Let me pose this question: How intellegent (be nice) do I look if I approve Final with no luminaries? How's this guy going to move in? Guess he needs a cap with a minor's lamp on it. Now assume I did approve this job (which I would not) this is a FINAL. Come on people.

I have approved jobs with some fixtures missing and noted on the report such and such fixtures missing so the builder and electrician and myself are covered. Then if I never see that job again (which is the case) and something happens- I'm golden.

Rob, that's fine if that is an adopted code in your area, but it is not an NEC requirement.

If there are local amendments that is a different ballgame, but I don't think most areas would want to get involved in making people have to have something in their residences, that they choose not to have.

George, not trying to put you on the spot, but answer one thing, is there an amendment in MI requiring Luminaires be installed, or is this your own rule?

Remember, in other than Kitchens and Bathrooms a switched receptacle is all that is needed.

So as I said in the other thread,
I understand and respect your desire as an inspector to want things as safe as they can possibly be, but you can only enforce what is adopted code in your jurisdiction.

Roger

Roger, this is not Code as per NEC it is required by the local Bldg Dept. Sorry for any confusion.

Rob

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 07-31-2005).]

I would also add that it is not up to inspector to exceed what is required in your area to get a Final Ispection.

Rob

Well it's a little of both. Building inspector asks me is the house safe to move into and that's part of my call. No lights- Not safe. Building code requires smoke alarms, No smoke alarms- Not safe.
Dishwasher capped up with j-box- Safe- dryer and range receptacles installed - Safe- Keyless in clothes closet- Not Safe. Panel ledger not marked- not safe.

If the GFCI test properly, they have a way of turning on lighting in the rooms and light fixtures at the exterior doors Safe.

I can support a Temporary Certificate of Occupancy that includes a final inspection clause and date.

Almost forgot: No there is no amendment in the Michigan Electrical code that says you must have light fixtures installed for final.



[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 07-31-2005).]

I don't believe the NEC requires a dwelling to have a range installed. A permanent provision for cooking is an electric range receptacle or a 120V receptacle accompanied by a gas shut-off valve in close proximity. I think hard wired appliances are required to be present for final inspection but not cord and plug connected ones. If a required lighting outlet in a room happens to be a switched receptacle, does the lamp need to be plugged in for final inspection? I wire a 3500 sq.ft. custom home 10 years ago for an owner who acted as his own GC. He had me install (2) 4 ton A/C circuits and terminate them in w/p disconnects. There were sleeves at the disconnect locations for linesets. He still hasn't, to this day, installed A/C. He doesn't like A/C but thought it would be good for resale value to have the home ready for it if he decided to sell. Should that have passed final? My brother-in-law just bought a brand new spec home that has capped off ceiling fan boxes in each bedroom. The bedrooms also have (1) switched receptacle. Ceiling fan/lights are at the buyers disgression. I don't see a problem if the requirements of the NEC are met. There may be other building codes that prohibit a final inspection before cord and plug connected appliance installation but I don't believe it is a NEC issue.

Speechless! Give me a break! The work contracted and job, are they finished?

Can you say yes, not a chance the job is not finalized yet sir.

All of your arguments still don't answer the question -- the job is not finished and cannot get the Final, maybe a Temporary Final like George says, but never a FINAL!

I am surprised and don't understand why the range if electrical would not be a problem if not installed?

The rest of those here are electricians and may have their opinions, but the bottom line is that the AHJ has the final say and must uphold the integrity of his or her position in the industry.

Joe, this is really sad that you would advocate this abuse of authority.

You are actually treading on thin ice as far as your credibility with that statement.

Roger

Roger:

Threatening me?

That's against the rules here in this Forum.

What is the problem?


Have you ever signed off on a final inspection, wearing the hat of an AHJ?

and ..... The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.

Joe, my statement is not a threat, it is a fact.

You seem to think that an electrician is less knowledgeable than you, this is definitely not the case, even if you think it is threatening your position.

When you make a point to demean a fellow inspector or electrical tradesman that has invested the "blood, sweat, and tears" it takes to become a professional, you are in jeopardy of loosing your credibility.

Roger

Hey Roger:

You can read into the statements I make and think whatever your mind says, I was not demeaning anyone!

I also started as an apprentice and worked my way up, why some of the people here are still very young and have a lifetime of learning and I appreciate that!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-31-2005).]

Joe, so do you think this means you can add rules?

Roger

Joe
I am an EC! Don't be so mean. I think your reading into this too far and takin it personal.

Rob

[This message has been edited by sierra electrician (edited 07-31-2005).]

Roger:

I am not adding any rules ~ just enforcing the code that's all!

I am one that does not agree with any inspector who writes his own rules!

Asking for some simple items is not writing the rules it is asking for the work to be finished.

I'll buy you both a beer if you shake hands and make nice....


Dnk......

Joe,
But remember that for rulings like this the AHJ is not the inspector, it is the governmental body that has adopted the code.
Don

and ..... The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
____________________________________________________

Inspectors DO NOT SPECIFY materials or equipment. Architects and Engineers perform this service.

Rob

Hey Rob:

Not taking anything personal I have nothing against any EC and I am not mean!

Never even met you and probably never will, don't read into the words and get angry...

I'm not angry, just mift as to to where this thread went.

Rob

By Joe T.


Then I ask respectfully what the code section is it that requires a luminaire or a dryer be installed at the time of the final?

Dnk, your a true diplomat.

Let it be known that my debate with Joe in this thread doesn't reflect my overall respect for him, but my statements and views hold true.

Roger

Don:

It is about time that you added your two cents, now that makes all 4 Moderators who had something to say here!

How does Chicage handle the Fianl Inspection process?

Hey Rob:

Were in the heck is North Fork, CA USA ~ "KMA"?

My comment about the AHJ came from Section 90.4!

Hey Rob again? What does "mift" mean?

iwire: Put the lampholders in and don't try cooking on a hot plate!

I am ready for that beer now Dnk!

by Joe T.

Yes and that still does not allow the adding of rules by the AHJ.

However MA has amended that section and grants even less power to the authority enforcing the Code (The town inspector) There is no authority of the local inspector to 'interpret' anything.

MEC



Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 07-31-2005).]

Adjective: miffed mift

1. Aroused to impatience or anger
- annoyed, irritated, nettled, peeved, riled, roiled, steamed, stung

Verb: miff mif

1. Cause to be annoyed
"His behaviour really miffed me"

Sorry for the misspelled words

North Fork,CA: The center of CA

http://www.iespell.com/

Try this for spelling, I use it all of the time!

JT

Here in Connecticut, the AHJ often issues a temporary CO, just checking all the major points (everything not installed has been made safe, enough basic lighting, panels marked).

This way, the customer can move in and settle until the final inspection is done.

Matt:

That's reasonable.


Please expand. What does the final inspection include?


[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 07-31-2005).]

It seems to depend on the town, but they seem to check that each and every receptacle works (the inspectors assistant goes around with a plug checker). All GFIs function; Light or switched outlet per room; appliances wired correctly (I was caught “hardwiring” a range and the inspector required a breaker lockout kit for it :-).

Joe you would really appreciate Maui county. They require an extra inspection once the sheetrock is up with all the plates off so the inspectors can see the devices and makeup before the faceplates are installed. (nevermind that the wirenuts are blocking the view). Then you can call for final after you go back to put the plates on . Since I am only an electrician/elec contractor I realize my opinion won't sway you but I'm on Iwire's side of the fence on this.

It's like watching family fight isn't it?

To Roger and Members:

My comment earlier was taken incorrectly. I always say that the electrician and contractor, who have the experience in the field make the best electrical Inspectors.

They have been there and have done that!

There are members here who know me for many years, and they were electricians and now wear the inspector's hat and thank me for helping them toward that certification.

They too have agreed that some of my preachings were worth while.

Just because I come on strong here doesn't mean that I think that I am better than anyone else.

I have many experiences, some that you will experience too if and when you were to perform electrical inspections.

So if I rattled any cages, I am sorry that it was taken that way.

I would be the first to come to your aid if some AHJ was trying to make life miserable for you, just let me know if I can help.

Now how about that beer!

Isn't this fun?????????


Bartender set everyone up on me.........

(give Joe as many as he needs)

Dnk.........

Guys:
To get back to the question at hand.....
For final:
A set of approved plans on site.
All paperwork (permit & updates) filed & paid.
All devices installed and energized.
Panel labeled correctly, hopefully.
A lighting outlet in each area (sw recept or fixture) A 'blanked' box is acceptable.
'Hard wired' appliances installed.
(Majority of jobs are gas ranges; the gas appliances are REQUIRED for the gas utility to turn-on the gas service.
Smoke/carbon detectors
and all the other usual stuff.

OK, IF an electric range/oven is on the plans, it HAS to be installed. Dryers are plug-in, so.....
Dishwashers are hard wired, central air CU's must be installed/wired, etc.

THe EC's know not to schedule a 'final' with missing items.

Depending on the situation, we can issue a TCO, but that's another story.

John

Check your local bldg code
Here ('97 UBC) natural light is required in all habitable rooms except kitchens. They may be provided with artificial light.
bathrooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces are not habitable.
So all you need to pass is one luminaire in the kitchen, if you don't have any windows.

In CA, our energy standards kick in and you have to provide high efficacy luminaires in certain locations. Pretty much you have to install luminaires everywhere except a bedroom and a hallway (going by memory here). There are some trade offs.

Hotline,
Having the power on makes things easier for final, but unless you have local ammendments, I would say it's not enforceable by the letter of any code. We're talking residential only here.

Joe,
Glad I'm getting back to this at the end when everyone is ready to get a beer.
I dug out my copy of the Basic Checklist etc. Only reference to cord & plug equipment that I saw was on pg. 41, ...Receptacle accessable where disposal, dishwasher, ...etc.
I still do things pretty much the way I used to, and I sure haven't mellowed.
I do mark some finals as "final work in progress" and then list, panel directories, cover plates when painting is done, etc. That saves everyone time. If I get a complaint the electrician KNOWS I will be watching him on his next job and that after he has gone back and taken care of the complaint.
I have extended the part I wrote for you into a column for Tom Henry. It is pulished in his bimonthly newsletter.
The list from Hotline 1 looks usable for those that need list.
Alan --Inspector.

I talked to my favorite builder a while ago about this luminaire vs blank cover issue and she said the policy at her company is that there will be a switched receptacle available if they are leaving a blanked off ceiling box. I know the IAEI chapter here is split on the issue but the majority says a blank cover is an "outlet". I dissagree because an unqualified person can't get a light in that room. If they used a cover with a receptacle in it I would agree it was an outlet. You could "swag" a light in.

I still think the luminaire manufacturers are missing the boat by not making a pluggable socket/hanger that would accept an industry standard luminaire or fan. If swapping luminaires were easier, people would buy more.
I have dabbled with a couple designs that could carry heavy fixtures on snap in studs and incorporate a NEMA 5-15r as the electrical connection.
This would fit in a regular ceiling box.
I also dabbled with one using a duplex 5-15 for fan/light combos.

I think Hotline's list is excellent. But I guess I would have trouble using it without the power being on. I can't support this comment:
It is impossible to check polarity, GFCI protection, AFCI protection or many other code requirements without the power being on so I say it is a code requirement or at the very least a Building Department requirement to have the power on for inspection. I can't vouch for code compliance without the power being on.

George, it may seem strange to you (actually it does to me) but as I said earlier, there are areas that the electrical final is a prerequisite for the meter.

I guess these areas figure the EC and his/her license will be the accountable party to assure the items (required by applicable codes)are working properly in the end anyways.

Edited for a stupid spelling mistake

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 08-02-2005).]

For what it's worth the Massachusetts electrical application has a line you fill in with the number of "lighting fixtures" and a line for "lighting outlets".

Well George actually it is not impossible to check polarity/GFI's with the power off.
GFI's do have to be tripped and to trip them you need to have the power on...
This is why Orange county Florida is F'D UP!
Ok it is unlawfull to energize without pre-power aggreement...
Orange county will not do a prepower inspection, they perform prepower/final at the exact same time. So they break the rules by requiring GFI's to be tripped before the house gets a prepower.

Ok back to where I started!!
It's not impossible to check polarity/GFI without the power on.
Orange county uses a battery operated device that can check all of the above.
Greenlee makes a simular device (Orange county's is some small time electrical nut) that can do this, look in the Greenlee catalog it actually calls itself "Inspector GFI tester".
Luckly Osceola county only uses the little 9 dollar plug-in tester with GFI button, wich are very easy to fool:-)
Oh uhh, I mean I always do everything to 100% NEC and all local building and municipal codes.

Sandsnow:
OK, I have to ask....how do you get 'natural light' after sundown??? Yes, we have houses with skylights in rooms, bathrooms, etc.
How could you have a bathroom without a light?? A attached garage without a light??

OK, real quick...
For new resi we do a "rough wire" inspection, "service" inspection, and "FINAL"
Upon "service" inspection & approval a cut-in card is faxed & mailed to the utility & the service is energized, usually in the name of the builder.

No power, no final; no HVAC CU no final, etc.

Comm is basically the same; with "ceiling".

I/we don't like TCO's for resi; most times whatever is 'amiss' can be addressed before the paperwork is processed. For a TCO, Elec; Plumb; Fire; Bldg & Engineering must all "sign off a TCO"; loose one & you're out of luck.

John

PS: Thank you gentlemen for the comments on the "list". Gee, I think it ay be tough to have the town buy a Inspector battery operated GFI tester. NJ does not enfoce the AFCI requirements.

[This message has been edited by HotLine1 (edited 08-02-2005).]

Roger- I didn't know that but I'm sure your accurate. I like my way of inspecting better- with power turned on

hotline

I have no idea what the authors of that section of the building code are thinking.

Remember the intent of the building code as well as the nec. MINIMUM standards for safety.

Anything beyond the letter of the code should be in writing by the local AHJ and approved by the city council or at least "memo" form on official letterhead by the chief building official. And then available to all interested parties to view.

I know this doesn't happen in the real world and many local ammendments are just word of mouth.

I noticed some said they can't check a house with-out power to get a final. Try hooking a Portable Gen to it. Its quick and easy, and when you leave the job you kknow you will not have to return.

Rob

I don't know about Chicago Joe, but nearby, in my opinion, what's on the plans must be installed. Approved plans are a contractual document. In a previous thread on the same topic, I asked the question how an inspector knows a circuit is wired correctly to a lighting outlet without a light being installed, and without having the electrician go to each box with a tester because that would take too much time. I don't remember getting an answer. The light may technically not have to be installed, but the electrician does have to prove it is wired correctly if the AHJ requires so. Oh yeah, I do check every hard wired appliance connection, and I find that 20 to 30% are miswired in some fashion. And not always by the crappy contractors. Plug in appliances do not need to be in as long as the recept is wired properly.

It should be noted to developers and GC's that they must inform new tenants that any additional modifications to the electrical system will require an additional permit and inspection(s).

I had a tenant buy a unit as is, hired a large orange hardware store install the cabinets and found electrical boxes buried and new ones installed to accommodate the layout. A brand new unit and already buried J-boxes. What a shame. No offense to anybody, I have inspected work of contractors that I would hire to wire my own house and who have taught me a lot, but they make mistakes too and learn some stuff from me too. When you inspect hundreds of different peoples work, you learn so much more than dealing with just your own work. No matter how good anyone is, a second set of eyes never hurt anyone, but the work does have to be completed to assure it is right. I tend to side with Joe here, but the part that is lacking that many of you have mentioned is the municipality putting their policies in writing and doing thorough plan reviews, which includes careful reading of the notes.

OK; natural light is a west coast thing...but it does get dark there at night; did last time I was in Ca. (SF to Tijuana)

Here in NJ, the NEC is adopted as the Electrical Sub-Code for the State Uniform Construction Code; with some amendments. (No AFCI; enforcement, etc) There are NO local amendments that I am aware of.
Enforcement is within the UCC laws, and yes, we have an energy code within the UCC.

Maybe I don't understand what you mean...are you saying all you need is a luminaire in the kitchen, and the rest of the resi is 'natural light'??? That would not happen here.

John



[This message has been edited by HotLine1 (edited 08-04-2005).]

Joe I agree with you about having everything in place upon final, only way you the inspector knows it is correct. In Michigan the Plumbing Inspector will not sign off until the electric water heater is wired and energized, so they can easily see that it is plumbed correctly. So should be the rest of the house as applied to the different codes such as return air to the furnace hooked up correctly. The problem comes usually with the homeowner running low on money at the end and holds off on dishwasher, instead of over range micro just a range vent then for the bedroom ceiling fan and light just put up a keyless for now and the homeowner will replace in a few years. Then here is another thing that hasn't been mentioned some inspectors do not becomed paid until final is done and occupancy permit is given, could make the boat payment this month.

Gentleman,

Let's not let this thread get out of hand. I love this board because we are above those other flamming boards where every one picks on every one else.
The point here is that when you give a final inspection, YES, everything should be in place. We also know that in some towns, (sometimes through political pressure) we have to give a temporary Certificate of Occupency. (TCO)
As an AHJ, I would do my very best to make sure that a home is safe for people to move into. Yet, if they don't have all of their fancy light fixtures and they have to move out of their old house, well they can install keyless light fixtures in place of their new $5,000 light fixture. Many times people will want to move into a home and they don'y have the money to install the HVAC system. No problem! You can close out the existing permit, BUT you have to open a new permit for the HVAC! This way it gives me the right to go back into the house and make sure that the HVAC IF/When it is installed I make sure that it is installed properly. Same goes for outside lights. You might not have all of your fancy scones lights around the outside of your house, just install a $15 contractor special "jelly" Jar light fixture. This way there is light by each door and the people in the house can see to get into and out of. I will not allow any open wires exposed in the house that is way to dangerous. All wires will have to be "Safed off" for a TCO inspection.

Hotline
Sorry about the delay.
If we did not have our energy standards, then the building code currently in effect just requires natural light.
I can't stress enough to check for yourself in your local building code.
The NEC just requires an outlet.

We all need to get back to just what the locally adopted codes require. No More, No Less.

There are inspectors out there asking for things that are not in any code, but either they think they are, they were told to, or they just make stuff up because they think it is a good idea.
Electricains either believe them, or just want to pass even though they know it's wrong.

Sandsnow:
Thanks for the reply, and yes, we used to hae the "my way" guys, but that is coming to be the past.

Not to beat a dead horse, maybe I just don't get what you're saying; it's been a long 12 days, but what's with the "only natural light" thing?????

John

PS: My e-mail is in my profile if you care to do it off this board.

I am a little confused on the appliances being in place. Builders around here do not supply the appliances and can't sell a house without the final. Do you suggest we buy appliances to put in for the final and then take them out so the new owner can get what they want? If I want a gas stove I do not get a final unless I install an electric stove and then remove it after final? Some houses never get an electric stove or dryer, does this mean they never get final electrical? Please clear this up for me. Thanks Rod
BTW Around here we can get a meter release to have power on for final.I have enjoyed reading the different views and see we are all concerned with the safety of the customers.

I think they are really talking about the things that are screwed down. I know that is always the last thing they install around here since they tend to walk away in spite of being fastened in place.
A few years ago there was a rash of "walking" A/C condensers. You couldn't seem to keep one on the side of a house.
I would certainly agree things like the fridge, washer and dryer should not be required for a CO since the customer may want their own in there. Builders usually just have a couple models available and buyers of McMansions usually want something $pecial.

Thanks around here if it is hard wired is has to be in for final but if it is cord and plug the plug is inspected, not the appliance. Rod

WOW... The NEC is taking on a new structure..

Let me ask this to Joe...

When did the NEC start jumping out of the wall?? I thought that was UL domain?

Sierra:

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I noticed some said they can't check a house with-out power to get a final. Try hooking a Portable Gen to it. Its quick and easy, and when you leave the job you kknow you will not have to return.
Rob

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It is unlawfull to energize any circuit prior to a pre-power inspection.
Finable up to 10,000 dollars.
Don't believe me? Ask Terry's electric who was fined on multiple circumenstances and fired few leadmen and thier helpers.


It shall be unlawful for any person to use any electrical current in or through any wiring apparatus or fixtures for light, heat, or power in or on any building or structure, until the same shall have been inspected and approved by the county administrator, and the certificate hereinafter provided for shall have been issued therefor.
(Ord. No. 71-4, § 1)


[This message has been edited by foestauf (edited 08-24-2005).]