A question was brought up at an electrical contractors meeting, Load side of a meter - how long are you permitted to enter a building to terminate to a panel, and - when dose a meter main combo come into affect. A contractor claimed that the NEC dose not provide a distance from meter to panel. ( The AHJ claims an old code of 5 ft ) the utility claims 5 to 8 ft, but not in writing. Just wondering ???

This is really up to the AHJ and the local policy. The NEC doesn't specify a distance.
Common sense says it should be as short as possible and some AHJs set that at zero, requiring an outside disconnect.
The load side of the first disconnect is simply a feeder and follows regular wiring rules.

opps duplicate post

[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 07-08-2005).]

The ( AHJ ) by LAW, is required to follow the current NYS & NEC codes. if the NEC dose not have anything for the distance of the Service Entrance Cable, The AHJ can NOT make up a RULING, and the Utility claims they follow the NEC. What I was told there was a old standard set within the trade in the 1960's for a 5 ft limit. The ( AHJ ) was contacted, and will hold to a 5 ft limit, but this is WRONG ! If the NEC holds NO Limit, how dose the AHJ follow the rules ?? and, who's rules to we follow ?

This one is easy Roslyn. The NEC mandates in 230.70 (A)(1) that "The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accesible location either outside of a building or structure or inside the nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."
This clearly allows the service entrance conductors to enter the building for a short distance to get to the disconnecting means.
There is no set NEC numerical limit but it is pretty clear that you are limited to a minimal distance.

Thank you, but what was said at the meeting, a contractor had a 12 ft basement ceiling, pretty high, but this was the case. upon entering from the cill plate, the SEU cable was past the ( 5 ft ) AHJ limit ( They Claim ) and violated the job. in affect the Main Breaker would have been over 6' 6" in height , another voilation. The AJH wanted the contractor to install a Meter Main Combo to comply with the ( 5 ft ) limit. The contractor wants to fight the issue, the the AJH can NOT make up rules, just to enforce AND FOLLOW THE NEC.

Roslyn,
Electricmanscott posted the applicable NEC requirement. The main disconnect must be "nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors". In your mind, point to the spot where the service conductors enter the building, then point to the service disconnect. Now, if you can point to a spot along the service conductors between the first two spots, then the disconnect is not "nearest the point of entrance", because this third spot is nearer. If the AHJ were to follow the letter of the NEC on this, there would be no distance allowed between the entrance point and the disconnect. If the AHJ is making up any rules here, it is only to allow a more flexible interpretation of what "nearest the point of entrance" means. So, if you are going to insist upon the AHJ not making up rules, then you must be prepared to live with a 0 ft. allowance in such cases, because that is what the NEC litteraly says.

Roslyn, Just to add something else here.

The NEC is not the final authority here.

States, counties, and even townships can ammend this to make things even stricter.

Even the NEC gives the AHJ authority to some degree.

If the contractor fights with the AHJ, he would be opening up a can of worms in my eyes. The inspectors are better to work with than against. They are not out there to harass us.


Dnk......

230.70 is one of my favorite vaguaries in the code. However ROSLYN, this EC would be at the whim of the inspector on this one. This is also one of my favorite commentaries in the code too. (shown in italics)


That word 'nearest' gets subjective... It like "depends on what the definition of 'is',is" Some jurisdictions pay no mind to this code at all. Some want all conductors outside... Some leave it to the utility to decide. As it is thier un-protected conductors at risk and liablity. Where I am, I have seen them go all the way through the whole building, here's a little photo gallery of some I took pics of a while back discussing a simular thing. Here

Sounds like you're only talking about a few feet too, like a few bags of concrete and a little rebar to support it will solve the issue. See 230.6(2)

I thank you all for your inputs, I gave this info the the contractor that was in question with this issue. The problem for the contractor is that here on Long Ialsnd there are ( 5 ) AHJ in contract with the local town for inspections. It seems that each agency has a diffrent look and interpertation on the codes, not just this issue, but on several. On agancy might pass a job , and another would fail it. The problem is to get them all on the same PAGE ! This was a topic at one of our electrical contractor meetings, whitch nobody & even the inspectors had a HARD & FIRM answer for. I thank you all again for your inputs on this issue.

A little late for this one, but I'd make the argument that the "5 foot rule" is meant to apply to horizontal distance inside a building, not vertical.

As long as the panel is within 5' H from point of entrance this argument might work.

Here in NJ, most (but not all) AHJ's allow a "reasonable" amount of UNPROTECTED SE within a structure.

There is no 'black or white' type answer.

As an AHJ, "reasonable" is determined on a case-by-case basis, and I, nor anybody else will commit to a measurement.

Basically, enter at the sill plate, run STRAIGHT down into the panel, and you should be OK. Venture to the right or left, and you get a red sticker. Our utility co's have no jurisdiction past the meter pan, and they usually don't comment on anything past the point of attachment.

Options are exterior disco, or concrete encasement (NOT SEU); choices are left to the EC.

John

Thanks, The issue was cleared with 2 inspections agencys, but the other 3 are still reviewing the information. Upon entering the building from a cill plate for ( SEU cable ) or PVC conduit system. AHJ will set a 5 to 8 Ft limit, pending a ( as Per Job Basis ). The utility is concerned up to the MAIN Breaker, as to Fault protection and other interests of concern the utility has a voice in the matter. The electrical meeting for September will have an updated ( question & Answer Period ) on this topic.

There is no 5' rule in the NEC, you may have a local amendment with a 5' rule but as far as the NEC is concerned it is "nearest the point of entrance"

There is/was an errata in the NEC in Art 338, where it mentions that the cable can enter the building to 6 feet. This and other local codes have kept the "myth" of some kind of allowance into the building before a disconnect is required.

I totally disagree. Just my opinion. The municipalities that restrict the disconnect to the outside of the building in my mind seem to understand the potential danger of allowing unprotected service entrance conductors inside of any structure or building.

There are all kinds of arguments against an outside disconnect for services, but the municipalities that require this seem to have none of those problems...HMMM!!!

The NEC is a safety document, and I still think that keeping the disconnect outside is a great idea.

Maybe a proposal to change the language is in order.

There are also all kinds of arguments against a disconnect inside. The municipalities that allow this don't seem to have these problems.

Pierre


I am sure that is 100% accurate.

Now can you document any problems with going in 6' other than a gut feeling that it's unsafe?

I do not mean to be a wise guy here but in this area an outside disconnect is a rare thing.

Also rare is a problem with the service conductors inside the building. HMMM!

I have never seen an incident with this installation in my 41 years on the planet.

Now if you could show a history of problems with the status quo then you could put in a proposal.

Of course MA would probably amend out any changes to the current wording.


Bob

Look at how these two Redsox fans are picking on a Yankee fan, just because the Yankees won today

LOL
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(I hope you really do not feel picked on)

Here is a service I saw while in NY last summer it is on East Main St in Washingtonville, NY.

Are the black boxes under the meter service rated disconnects?

From this distance they look like HVAC cut outs.



Nice protection on the SEs

How did that service ever pass inspection w/o at least load side protection from physical damage?

Look at how these two Redsox fans are picking on a Yankee fan, just because the Yankees won today.

LOL!

It must be terrible to be a fan of a team that has not won a championship this century.

The curse of A-Rod!