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Posted By: shortcircuit smoke detectors - 07/08/04 11:22 PM
Big one family dwelling with 12 (maxium allowed on one zone) inter-connected hard wired (120 volt) with battery back-up located in the dwelling and approved by the local authorities...sooo now the owners purchasing the property are unable to get home owners insurance on the dwelling unless there is a "monitered" fire alarm system installed in the dwelling! Apparently as of Janruary 1st 2004 in MASSACHUSETTS the insurance industry has a new rule applying to homes and contents worth more than a million dollars to have a monitered fire alarm system.Any input on this???
Posted By: pwood Re: smoke detectors - 07/08/04 11:30 PM
shortcircuit,
penalizing the rich yet again!wish i was so lucky.i would gladly cooperate .the insurance companies can and do call their own shots so whats the problem?i guess if you are rich enough you can self -insure and not be blackmailed by their demands. [Linked Image]
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: smoke detectors - 07/08/04 11:57 PM
pwood,
My builder is the one who will be eating the tab for this one and he is not to happy about it...he is under contract to deliver a product that is insurable.The house is 95% finished and it is not very snakeable at this point.
Any help solving this???We have to deliver the home in 2 weeks:<(
Posted By: sparky Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 03:05 AM
The individual the runs Countryside Lock and Alarm in Ludlow Vt once told me that interconnected smokes could have the grounding conductor serve as a signaling entity towards a monitored system, allbeit not quite UL appropo

but in reality, dosen't most automation utilize the same idea ?

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wish i was so lucky.i would gladly cooperate

oh you do cooperate pwood, wheather you realize it or not

Vt recently took over as the numero uno second home state from Maine

we've more second home owners here living in McMansions that natives on thier family farms

so if you've an inkling as to the widening disparity, the Edwardian "Two America's" you'd best hold your breath and thank Dawd for the manna handed down from the Masters of the Universe here lest crush you under thier steel wheels....

~S~

~S~

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-08-2004).]
Posted By: caselec Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 03:31 AM
Do they specify what types of smoke detectors/alarms are to be used? Alarm companies frequently monitor the AC/DC smoke alarms we install by using a relay designed for the smoke alarms. The relay doesn’t count as one the 12 max alarms. Even if you are required to replace all of the smoke alarms the current wiring between them can still be used. If you disconnect the power source and can get a wire from the alarm panel to any of the alarms you should be ok. Most alarm panels will work with 2-wire or 4-wire smoke detectors.

Curt
Posted By: DougW Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 03:40 AM
Other than the fact ir's big uncle sticking his nose in the pot? Nope!

(Of course, what do you expect from Taxachussets?)

Most of the Digital and combo (digi/analog) alarm systems that the big companies use (ADT etc.) will interconnect with the "regular" smokes we use - you just won't be able to have a device-specific ID, like you do with the digi / wireless encoded jobs. Check with whatever monitoring company is big in your area for compatability with their monitoring service, plan for a dedicated phone line (to avoid hassles with line capture and status during normal phone usage) and, as long as you can get a letter from ADT/whomever that says the residence is capable of being monitored, you've got your compliance - it's up to the HO to ante up for the monthly fees.

("Central Station" is the term for companies like ADT that monitor alarms but aren't FD/PD dispatch centers on hardlines)

BTW, as a FF, I don't know if I like the idea of 12 individual smokes on 1 zone in a multi-zone alarm system. Most of the newer rigs will support 99 zones - why not at least break down into vague areas - "Upstairs Bedroom North" is a lot better to an FD responding to an alarm than just a "smoke detector in the residence"

Just my $0.02

[soapbox]I could also go on about the disparity of 1950's CEO's-to-line-worker's-wages compared to now; or the "standard of living" being shifted to make 1 income families more difficult; but remember - you're "rich" to the liberals if your family makes more than $50k/yr! [/soapbox]
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 10:18 AM
caselec,
I was told by the builder that the system had to be "monitered"...so far the supply house has called the firex rep. and he said their smokes can't be monitered.They sell a relay for the system that can signal a remote horn,but that works with 120 volt power.
Also, the smokes are wired with 14-3 romex and I've been told that the "Alarm Guys" smoke detectors must be wired with fire alarm rated wiring,(16-2 red wire)so I guess that my wiring is unsuitable for thier system.

DougW,

I'll check with ADT to see if they have a solution to this mess...thanx
Posted By: iwire Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 10:26 AM
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They sell a relay for the system that can signal a remote horn,but that works with 120 volt power.

So by another small relay with a 120 volt coil and wire the 'alarm guys' points to that.

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Also, the smokes are wired with 14-3 romex and I've been told that the "Alarm Guys" smoke detectors must be wired with fire alarm rated wiring,(16-2 red wire)so I guess that my wiring is unsuitable for thier system

They do not know what they are talking about, you can not wire these 120 volt smokes with 16 AWG wire.
Posted By: earlydean Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 12:36 PM
The alarm guy's smokies WILL work with the 14/3 NM, (wire is wire) the red cable is for plenum wiring and for commercial installations.
Just change out all your smoke detectors to the alarm guy's brand, bring the 14/3 feed into the monitored alarm box and terminate according to the instructions.
Posted By: caselec Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 03:05 PM
The relay available from Firex has dry contacts and can be used for 120 volt or low voltage loads. Here is a link (page 2 is in English) Firex Relay

We use these relays all the time on dwelling units so the alarm company can monitor our smoke detectors. We usually run a 14-3 to a single gang box near the alarm panel but you could install the relay any where its convenient as long as you can get a low voltage wire from the alarm panel to it.

If you decide to replace all of the smoke alarms find another alarm contractor. 14-3 NM-B is an acceptable wiring method fo the low voltage detectors. If the company you’re talking to realizes that they are going to loose a very lucrative monitoring contract because they want to replace all the wire they might change their mind.

Curt



[This message has been edited by caselec (edited 07-09-2004).]
Posted By: shortcircuit Re: smoke detectors - 07/09/04 08:51 PM
iwire,
1st thanx for responding to this issue.
About the 120 volt relay...if the house loses power,the 120 volt relay won't send a signal to the alarm panel under alarm, right?
And about the 14-3 romex...I meant that the low voltage smoke detector systems can't utilize my 14-3 romex for hook-up to their smokes.I had a alarm guy tell me today that the wire he uses must be rated for 105`C and the romex is only good to 90`C...He said it is in NFPA 72, but I havn't seen it in print yet?
He also mentioned about the way we don't daisy chain our wiring between all detector locations (T-Taps) and they wouldn't be able to tell if one of the detectors was disconnected.
The alarm guy went on to say he will replace my smokes with wireless ones that will let them(the monitering service) even know when a battery is low at the individual detector.
Posted By: e57 Re: smoke detectors - 07/10/04 08:37 AM
shortcircuit
Sounds like your problem is being sorted out.

As for the relay idea, I have done it before. Only to eleimate having the alarm guys smokes and mine right next to eachother. We're required to install hard wired smokes by law in new and major remodels, then the alarm company sells them some more with thier system.

On a simular problem, we had a very smart alarm guy "forget" to rough once! They rocked away! He did the wireless thing for most of the security. Then used our smokes with the relay described above, then another relay that triggered "loss of power" to thier monitor. Which, I believe they do anyway... Then only had to wire the heat detectors in a few key areas.

As far as the red wire, not sure if it is required to be red specifaly, very rarely do I see it used in residential systems. These most often are property protection, not life safety systems. Tempature and insulation another story. I'm not sure of what Massachusetts is requiring. (I left in 1990) But I hope it works out.

Yuo could also move some undesirable friend to the neighborhood, and drop the propety value... to say $999,999.99!
Posted By: DougW Re: smoke detectors - 07/11/04 01:19 PM
When my buddy (alarm tech) wired my house, all the hardwired smokes & heats were run with a (red) fire-rated cable of some sort - no bigger than 18AWG max - for both 24vdc power and signal loop connection. (He stated it was fire-resistant, which automatically made me think of plenum rated cable... don't know if it's the same or not) According to him, it's more of a UL requirement for the individual installation than an NEC item.
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