How many areas have no Certificate of Occupancy?

In my area all work on a house has to be finished and I think the property even has to landscaped (have a lawn) before someone can move in. How is it where you are?

Bill

Hi Bill. We also issue a certificate of occupancy. We issue it once all violations have been cleared, and, if sprinklered, the Fire Marshall has "signed off" on the house. Once in a while there are CC&R's that require landscaping/tress/sprinklers, etc... and these also must be in place prior to the C of O.

the building code does not require a co for single family dwellings or garages(u occupancies)so all we do is final them.the final box signed is what the bank requires to approve financing.that is the hammer that gets the unresolved issues;resolved!all other occupancies will get a co at the time of final.

More specifically, Does a House have to be certified somehow as being finished before someone can move in?

I'm thinking here of situations like those in Sparky's pictures ( here ) where unfinished installations pose a threat to Occupants. What is the Agency that should be looking to protect Consumers from their own ignorance by requiring everything be finished?

Bill

Here in the City, we require one. Of course, I'm still operating off of a 'temp' CO from when I bought the house.

The AHJ (BI) was a former FD Lt. I told him I was buying the house, so he "scrutinized" the heck out of it, winding up with a "fix or forget" list for the new owner of close to 2 (small) hand written pages.

When I asked him about the list, he laughed, and said "I really went over the place for you. Don't worry - they've got to fix it before they sell it to you"

I told him "No Jackie, I've got to fix all that stuff when I move in....

They're selling the house as is!"

Oops.

Obviously (back to point) re-inspection isn't a high priority, especially with exisitng structures. With new construction, they're a little toughter, but nowhere near as tough as the "snooty" towns to the south ($1 mil+)

A lot of places are more prone (existing) to "grandfathering" or "DIY disease" (Homeowner or "knowledgable" friend w/o permit OR know how)

No permits,no inspections,no CO,in my home county.

Russell

2nd that Russ

about the only person to view single family dwellings here is the banker (or the bankers minions) for levels of completion .

many times, i've noted that pigtailed lighting is not on their punch list, this i suppose due to it being a low monetary concern.

one customer of mine moved in without drywalling his second floor, he insited i device, plate, install pigtails , and energize the whole shebang to complete my contract and get paid.

i didn't feel to good about it, but i gotta eat, and as there is nobody (that i know of) to back me up i have little choice in such matters

best i can do is note potential hazards on my bills.... what else can i do?


I honestly wish i knew Bill...

~S~

C.O.'s are in place here too. Russell knows the difference a few miles and a state line makes.

Steve, I can certainly sympathize with the frustration you have.

Roger

Sparky,

Could it just be your local area?

I didn't have time to go through them, but a Google Search seems to show some requirements for CO in Vt:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...cate+of+Occupancy&btnG=Google+Search

Maybe the key phrase is "if adopted" ??

Bill

Bill;
the occupancy permits you've googled appear to be fire codes applicable to rentals.

rentals,(think ski bunnies, brew, and our states cash cow) have gained thier share of bueractratic notability, which is a good thing imho..

we can actually get an electrical inspector, as well as a fire marshal to do a site visit, also a very good thing.

this doesn't apply to single fam residences, and i have heard that the farmers here have had thier say somehow in the matter (i'm not sure how they factor in)

certian zoning administrators here, depending on the town, have taken up site visits to private residences , however i think they are simply ensuring a viable structure for a tax sale?

perhaps they, through some sort of municipal involvemnet, will incite something statewide ...

Roger,
thanks, i do try and express hazards to people here, as anyone whom operates with his liability in mind would...

~S~


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-29-2004).]

My situation exists in a 4 or 5 county area. However I do work for an EC in Roger's state of NC( Less than 2 mi. from here)and,as he says, things are drastically different. But a GOOD different.

Russell

Now, is completion of a Building a Bank-Related or a Safety issue?

I'm thinking it's a Safety related issue mainly (except for the landscaping part). Why (supposedly) do areas require certificate of compliance / Occupancy?

Bill

I've never heard of anything like a certificate of occupancy in England.

For a new home, the building inspector from the local Council (equivalent to "City Hall") may visit at various stages to check the foundation, compliance with any requirements that were a condition of planning permission (i.e. building permit), and so on. It's only just recently that there have been even proposals to incorporate wiring as part of the building regulations.

A similar situation exists where someone is virtually gutting an old place down to the walls and rebuilding it internally. A neighbor did just that to his place over the last two years, putting on a complete new roof, building a new exterior brick wall and stripping out the old pre-fab walls. (Yes, I did all the wiring, including providing him with temporary power during the largest part of the works.)

Is there an official definition anywhere of what constitutes occupancy? If someone sleeps there a couple of nights a week and cooks an odd meal on a campstove while working on the place, would he be considered to be occupying the building?

It seems a rather gray area, like the "No overnight parking" signs on roadsides here, when there's no official definition of what constitutes "overnight."


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-30-2004).]

Bill,

The mortgage company would not close on my oldest daughter's new house until the yard was seeded and covered with straw, and they did have a CO.

I'm not sure what the value of this requirement was to them. Several hard rains followed, washed most of the seed away, and almost none of it grew.

Here in MA you need a CO, for all projects even a single room remodel and a fire inspection

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone ever challenged an occupancy certificate requirement? I thinking along the lines of claiming that the state has no right to tell somebody that he cannot be on his own property.

Hi Paul. When we adopt a code, it is adopted as a state law. Section 110.1 of the International Building Code states that "...no building or structure shall be used or occupied....until the building official has issued a certificate of occupancy..."

I'm sure it could be challenged, but I doubt the results would be favorable to the challenger.

Hello Paul, like Ryan says, I'm sure it could and has been challenged, but I don't think it would go very far. The C.O. here is a prerequisite for utility service. (water and power)

I guess someone could live an 1800"s life style if they desired

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-10-2004).]

Isn't at least part of this requirement for Public Safety?

If not Electrical Related, think about Plumbing. The House must conform to certain Plumbing and Sanitary codes to better protect public Safety.

Isn't this part of it, or am I all wet?

Bill

No Bill, you aren't all wet. The health dept does have say so in our C.O.'s

My mention of water service also includes sewer systems, be it septic tanks or municipality services.

Roger

So, from a Health and Safety point of view why wouldn't some assurance of compliance be in place in all populated areas?

If it's not it seems to me that some agencies somewhere are dropping the ball or may be negligent on issues pertaining to Public Health and Safety. Don't Municipalities ever get sued over stuff like that?

Bill

Bill, I,m going to drift a little from the "C.O." point, but I think it may be relavant to your question. and
Unfortunatly some governments of these populated areas are more interest in money and growth than the well being of the residents.

In the article linked below notice that there is no drinkable water underneath the area, but there is no mention of a moratorium on building either, just relaxing the polution laws.
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGASK849EHD.html

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-10-2004).]

Roger,

It doesn't sound like any of their options are good.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 02-10-2004).]

Bill, no it doesn't.

I guess the statement we all remember, "when in Mexico don't drink the water" now pertains to Central and South Fl.


Roger

In my little corner, all that's required for permanant power is a sign-off on the septic installationby the county health dept.

The State leaves code enforcement up to local govts.to do as they see fit.

A complaint can bring a visit from the State licensing board to discipline someone in the licensed trades.

Strangely enough,there's no Statewide licensing for Building Contractors.


Russell

I find this quite fascinating as we have no equivalent certificate here. For those jurisdictions which have a certificate, what happens during a major remodel, say where the place is being stripped back to virtually a shell, with all the old wiring & plumbing being ripped out? Does the AHJ rescind the certificate until the new install meets their requirements?

Although electrical has never been governed by "City Hall" here, there have long been bye-laws (local ordinances) relating to water and sewer requirements, for the same public health reasons as outlined above. As I understand it, the primary concern regarding the city water supply is to prevent the possible contamination of the public lines by back siphonage from an individual house.

I would have thought that the easiest way to achieve this protection would be for the water company to install a non-return valve at the main shut-off where the line enters the house, yet I've never seen this done.

Re Tampa/St. Petersburg area:
$600 per year for sewer charges seems steep as it is. What is anyone else paying in different parts of the country these days?

Paul, being that I'm in the country, we are still using a septic tank/drain field system so I can't answer.

Even in this situation, the health department does the percolation testing to approve the size of the house as far as new permits are concerned,

Roger

I'm about 5 miles from town. There is still an old (disused) septic tank buried under the lawn somewhere, but apparently the sewers were extended to this area sometime in the 1980s.

The bill for the current year is £159 (approx. U.S. $286 at the current exchange rate). That's actually more than the water supply bill, which is £120 ($216) for the year (unmetered).

Being that nearly all the projects I deal with are Non-Residential, my reply is likely to be irrelevent - but this won't stop me!


Certificate of Occupance will not be issued until finals for Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC and Fire/Life/Safety have been issued.
To me, this sounds like a Public Safety thing more than a Bank issue - especially since a great majority of the projects were of just that - Banks! (Branches, Mains, Loan Centers, REOs, etc.).

We get "TCOs" (Temporary Certificate of Occupancy) at times, in order to get the Service Release / PoCo sets Meter and energize service, along with other Utilities activation.
The TCO is done for Final Commissioning of the project, while the overall work in the remaining trades may be ± 90% complete.

For TCO, the F/L/S equipment must be operable - and Division 5 permit (for monitoring) must be obtained. If testing results are OK, and sprinklers also pass, then the F/L/S part is happy for TCO.

Electrical needs to be at least 90% complete - and if any stubs are unconnected, they must be safed off.

Kind of detailed for what goes into TCO, but it's almost as much involved as with a normal CO.
TCO also allows the Tenant / Client to bring in their stuff + set up the place, and allows for us to "Train The Client" on the installed systems / equipment.
The Client may not conduct business with the Public (general public may not "walk-in" or be on site) during the TCO.

Not having very much Residential experience in these matters, I wonder myself how the CO is issued in California per Residential (1 Family Dwellings).
I would imagine the CO is similar for Multi Family Dwellings here, as is with Commercial/Industrial projects.

Scott35

A few years back I installed a used mobile home in the middle of the winter. Electric heat. Owner put in new septic system, new well, and new electric service -200 amp. The building inspector wasn't going to issue her a CO because she didn't have a waterpump in operation. She read him the riot act and he actually backed down and let her move in. The house was in the middle of an area that is habitated by the Amish. They dont have any electric services and her argument was, How can you deny me a CO when they draw water by hand?

Scott 35,
The same rules apply, only more so...S

In NC the laws governing the building codes are specifically stated to be for the protection of the municipality not the owner/tenant. Thus an owner or tenant cannot wave their right to inspection. The building codes go way back (medieval times in Europe) and originally were fire codes. The right of the government to enforce various building codes for the common good goes way back and is not likely to be successfully challenged.

Bill,


NJ requires CO's before you can move in. Plus as someone said, the Zoning dept. will make sure about the grass, driveway, etc. We also have something we call CCO's which only applies to commercial buildings when one tenant moves out and another tenant moves in. The building Dept. will send out a 4 trades, to just double check the building. We look for safety issues and somethimes the building inspector will look for new work that was done since the last CCO.

Harold,

Interesting about the CCOs. That sounds like a good idea.

Bill