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Posted By: Admin Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 04:32 PM
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Here are some pictures I took while on vacation in Minnesota. The house was built in 1927. The service was upgraded, I think, in the late '50s-early '60s.

Look at the second photo, and what do you see?

--yaktx
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Posted By: chipmunk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 06:24 PM
Judging by the 'keyhole' mounting hole there, the panel was installed upside down. Neat work though. Are (or were) yellow phase conductors usual for some reason in the area, or is it a case of 'what the guy had on the van'.

I'd have been a little worried about 'yellowing' of the white wires causing phase and neutral to appear similar.
Posted By: royal12136 Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 06:48 PM
Double tapping on the left side?
Posted By: sierra electrician Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 08:20 PM
The cover is missing?
Posted By: Redsy Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 08:44 PM
A second view of the first picture?
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 09:03 PM
According to the NEC, it is perfectly acceptable to use whatever color you have on the truck for an ungrounded conductor, as long as it is not white, gray, or green. There is an additional restriction on orange, which must be and may only be used on the 208V-to-ground leg of a four-wire delta, if such a system exists on the premises.

Many jurisdictions, including my own, are more restrictive.

Yes, there is double-lugging going on in here. That might have been legal at the time.

For the ungrounded branch circuit conductors, I see three colors: yellow, orange, purple, and another color which is debatable. Is it blue? Gray? Green? My wife voted for teal. It looked green enough to me that I wouldn't have used it for a phase.

The question is, if it is green: Is this grandfathered?
Posted By: stamcon Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 10:00 PM
The installed fuses look like they say "type S" (fusestat), but the spares sitting on top are standard edison based. They better get some proper spares.
Posted By: georgestolz Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/05/05 10:52 PM
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Yaktx wrote:
There is an additional restriction on orange, which must be and may only be used on the 208V-to-ground leg of a four-wire delta, if such a system exists on the premises.
Orange is not forbidden to be on other phases and systems. 480V systems are typically Brown, Orange, Yellow.

You could mark all three conductors orange in a midpoint-grounded delta system. It just wouldn't be very helpful. [Linked Image]
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 03:19 AM
Every panel with Type S adapters has a few Edison base fuses laying around nearby. People buy the wrong thing, and never get around to getting rid of it once they figure out it won't fit.
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 03:30 AM
Just George wrote: "You could mark all three conductors orange in a midpoint-grounded delta system. It just wouldn't be very helpful."

Well, I just looked it up, and my previous statement was not exactly correct. 110.15 states that "only the conductor or busbar having the higher phase voltage to ground shall be durably and permanently marked by an outer finish that is orange in color or by other effective means". I thought I remembered learning that this meant orange couldn't be used anywhere else in the building, but it says only within the system.

Orange is typically used in 480V systems, because buildings with such systems rarely if ever also have a four-wire delta system, and therefore there is no potential for confusion.

Here in my area, orange is absolutely forbidden except in this one area of application. Around here this type of service is fairly common, in contrast to some areas.

If you have a single-phase service, and you are in an area with no local restrictions, you may certainly use orange, as seen here.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 03:15 PM
As I read the code, orange is really only a suggested color for the high-leg on a 4w delta, not mandatory (my emphasis added):

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215.8 Means of Identifying Conductor with the Higher Voltage to Ground. On a 4-wire delta-connected secondary where the midpoint of one phase winding is grounded to supply lighting and similar loads, the phase conductor having the higher voltage to ground shall be identified by an outer finish that is orange in color or by tagging or other effective means. Such identification shall be placed at each point where a connection is made if the grounded conductor is also present.
The 1971 NEC says the same thing in article 200-6(c), just with slightly different wording, but has a bar indicating a change beside the part which mentions orange or other effective means. Could this be when the orange high-leg was added to the code?
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You could mark all three conductors orange in a midpoint-grounded delta system. It just wouldn't be very helpful.

I can't find anything in the 2002 code against doing that, but it seems as though it would have been a violation at one time. 1971 NEC, article 210-15(c), emphasis added again:

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Where installed in raceways, as open work or as concealed knob-and-tube work, the ungrounded conductor shall be identified by any color other than as specified in (a) and (b) above. All ungrounded conductors of the same color shall be connected to the same ungrounded feeder conductor and the conductors for systems of different voltages shall be of different colors.

Exception: As permitted in section 200-7.

There is then a recommendation that basic circuits for a single wiring system use black, black/red, or black/red/blue as phases.

This whole article is marked as changed from the previous edition.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-06-2005).]
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 04:33 PM
Nice finds, Paul!

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As I read the code, orange is really only a suggested color for the high-leg on a 4w delta, not mandatory...

That is how I read it as well. Anyone know of any jurisdictions where "other effective means" are used? [Linked Image]

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The 1971 NEC says the same thing in article 200-6(c), just with slightly different wording, but has a bar indicating a change beside the part which mentions orange or other effective means.


Paul, how'd you think to look for this in Article 200? I wouldn't have found it there, that's for sure! I guess since it only applies where the neutral is present in the enclosure, it makes some amount of sense to put it in Article 200 (the present-day requirement applies whether the neutral is present or not).

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Could this be when the orange high-leg was added to the code?

Yes, that's when it was added. '68 prescribes "tagging or other effective means."

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I can't find anything in the 2002 code against doing that, but it seems as though it would have been a violation at one time. 1971 NEC, article 210-15(c)...

Paul, I think you are referring to 210-5(c). There is no 210-15 in the '71 NEC. Here is 210-5(c) in the '75 NEC:

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(c)Ungrounded Conductor. Ungrounded conductors of different voltages shall be of different color or identified by other means.

210-5(c) disappears entirely in '78, its relevant information having been moved to 310.10 in '75.
Posted By: electure Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 04:37 PM
My Goodness, Paul [Linked Image]

Have you moved to the US?
Your Code book collection is impressive, and your information great!

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 11-06-2005).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 04:41 PM
I have read on these forums that some power companies require purple to be the high leg marking and some also want the high leg in position 'C'

By the way your right, Paul is very helpful. [Linked Image]

Bob
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 04:46 PM
Here's the 1959 NEC:

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210-5. Color Code. Where installed in raceways, as open work, or as concealed knob and tube work, the conductors of multi-wire branch circuits and two-wire branch circuits connected to the same system shall conform to the following color code. Three-wire circuits--one black, one white, one red; four-wire circuits--one black, one white, one red, one blue; five-wire circuits--one black, one white, one red, one blue, one yellow. Where more than one multi-wire branch circuit is carried through a single raceway the ungrounded conductors of the additional circuit may be of colors other than those specified. All circuit conductors of the same color shall be connected to the same ungrounded feeder conductor throughout the installation.
Any conductor intended solely for grounding purposes shall be identified by a green color unless it is bare. Conductors having a green covering shall not be used for other than grounding purposes.
FPN: See section 200-7 for use of white or natural gray for grounded or neutral conductors.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/06/05 04:56 PM
To answer an earlier-voiced concern: these panels often have a set of "keyhole" slots in either direction, so the panel can be mounted either way. I'm pretty sure that there is another such slot, oriented "correctly", concealed by the wires at the top of the panel.

I have no problem with edison-base fuses. Until quite recently, my place had them; the only thing I did differently was to use edison-base breakers in place of the 'one-use' fuses. (Correct amp ratings, of course).

For a '60's panel, this one is quite neat, and hasn't been added to much.
I would narrow the time frame down to "early '60's." I seem to recall circuit breakers taking over by1965.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/12/05 04:27 PM
Sorry for the late follow-up.....

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Your Code book collection is impressive, and your information great!

Not that great I'm afraid, as I have precisely two NEC code books, the 2002 thanks to the generosity of an ECN member and the 1971 thanks to eBay.

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Paul, how'd you think to look for this in Article 200? I wouldn't have found it there, that's for sure!

I think I was just looking up "Delta" in the index:

Delta-Connected,4-wire, 3-Phase Supply, Identifying high leg, 200-6(c).


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Yes, that's when it was added. '68 prescribes "tagging or other effective means."

Ah, so that's got the orange pinned down. Haven't we had threads in the past in which it's been said that in the 50s/60s some areas commonly used red for the high leg?

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Paul, I think you are referring to 210-5(c). There is no 210-15 in the '71 NEC.

Oops, yes, that was a slip. [Linked Image] I meant 210-5(c).


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By the way your right, Paul is very helpful.

May I quote you on that? [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-12-2005).]
Posted By: sponge Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/13/05 04:19 PM
Also looks like another problem - right side of panel, third terminal up (second pic) - That yellow insulation looks like it goes right under the tightened screw head and pokes out the other side. It's either an optical illusion or the electrician was half asleep...
Posted By: pauluk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 11/13/05 04:38 PM
I don't think it goes right through, but it does look as though there might be a little insulation trapped under the screw:

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Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 01/06/06 06:07 AM
Well, my follow-up is late, considering I thought this was a dead thread...

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Haven't we had threads in the past in which it's been said that in the 50s/60s some areas commonly used red for the high leg?

Nicknames for the 208V-to-ground phase of a four-wire delta:

high leg
wild leg
stinger leg
red leg
orange leg
bastard leg

Have I missed any?

Also, is there any country besides the USA which possesses such a strange beast?

There may have been some areas that used red. Anybody know?

Here in Austin the colors for 208 service are red-black-blue, and have been since at least WWII. For delta they are red-orange-black (B-phase being 208). On old deltas (usually '50s), I've found red-black-blue, and the blue is always the high leg.

I've even found this on single-family residences from the '50s. The earliest central air conditioning systems apparently required 3-phase ('round here we take our air conditioning seriously!)

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 01-06-2006).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 01/06/06 12:30 PM
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Have I missed any?

Only the unrepeatable names it might get called by someone getting 208 when he was expecting 120V! [Linked Image]

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Also, is there any country besides the USA which possesses such a strange beast?
I'd certainly never heard of the 4-w delta arrangement until I started getting interested in American wiring.

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For delta they are red-orange-black (B-phase being 208).

I wonder why not blue-orange-black, i.e. just replace the red with orange? I would have thought it would have been easier to distinguish between the colors when working in some dark corner.

Completely off-topic: I happened to catch a radio show here a few days ago which included a visit to the Broken Spoke dance hall in Austin. It had me wanting to be there...... [Linked Image]
Posted By: yaktx Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 01/06/06 11:51 PM
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Only the unrepeatable names it might get called by someone getting 208 when he was expecting 120V!

Yeah, that tends to drive out the magic smoke! [Linked Image]

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Completely off-topic: I happened to catch a radio show here a few days ago which included a visit to the Broken Spoke dance hall in Austin. It had me wanting to be there......

Ah yes, the Spoke... been awhile since I've been there. Caught Don Walser there a couple of times, that's his regular gig. My dad tells how he used to go there in his college days and see Willie Nelson, back when he was unknown. Great chicken-fried steak! [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by yaktx (edited 01-06-2006).]
Posted By: iwire Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 01/06/06 11:54 PM
Who is Willie Nelson? [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Residential Service ca. 1960 - 01/07/06 01:57 PM
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Great chicken-fried steak!
Yep, just to hear them talking about the food had my mouth watering. [Linked Image]

Quite a few country singers made some great records before they became famous. I have some of Waylon Jennings' early records from before he became well-known -- Great rock-country versions of classics like Big Mamou, White Lightning, and Sally Was A Good Old Girl. [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-07-2006).]
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